Reunião IRC Debian Women, 20 de novembro de 2004
A reunião foi moderada por Erinn Clark (helix), notas e resumo escrito por Helen Faulkner (helen).
Um pequeno resumo com os principais pontos de discussão seguido de notas mais detalhadas do encontro.
Resumo da Reunião
Parte 1: Apresentações
A maioria das pessoa no canal estava presente e ativa na reunião. 24 pessoas se apresentaram e nos disseram rapidamente qual o seu envolvimento com (ou sua utilização do) Debian.
Parte 2: Discussão
As seguintes questões foram discutidas.
O que as pessoas gostam sobre o Projeto Debian Women?
- Você encontra pessoas gentis e interessantes.
- O projeto Debian Women não discrimina ninguém.
- É um ambiente de ajuda. (FIXME)
- O projeto Debian Women já está obtendo sucesso em seus objetivos.
- As discussões do canal irc são divertidas.
- O projeto Debian Women tem quantidade aproximadamente igual de homens e mulheres envolvidos.
- O projeto Debian Women é um bom ponto de entrada para as mulheres se envolverem mais com Debian.
- É importante para os homens respeitar a necessidade que as mulheres têm por um espaço no qual possam se sentir confortáveis. O projeto Debian Women provê esse espaço.
- Um objetivo importante do projeto Debian Women é ajudar mulheres a aprenderem como ser mais fortes e mais confiantes.(FIXME)
- A necessidade do projeto Debian Women como um espaço particulamente amigável para as mulheres esperançosamente desaparecerá com o tempo, e com um envolvimento maior das mulheres no Debian. (FIXME)
- O número de mulheres entrando no NM é encorajador.
Será que o projeto Debian Women vai melhorar o Debian a longo prazo e este é um dos objetivos?
- Sim, melhorar o Debian é um dos objetivos principais. O outro objetivo principal é fazer o Debian mais acessível às mulheres.
- Sim, o projeto Debian Women vai melhroar o Debian porque ele envolve uma diversidade maior de pessoas, que podem oferecer diferentes pontos de vista, talentos e formas de interagir com os computadores. Mulheres são atualmente tão raras no Debian que elas tem muito a oferecer.
- Sim, porquê inclusão de grupos menos representativos de pessoas é geralmente bom para projetos como o Debian.
- Sim, porquê o projeto Debian Women ajudará o Debian a ser mais receptivo a todas as pessoas, não só às mulheres. (FIXME)
Como podemos chegar até as pessoas?
- Nós podemos traduzir informações sobre o projeto Debian Women para outros línguas.
- Nós podemos utilizar a mídia para divulgar o projeto Debian Women, no entanto nem toda forma de publicidade é boa.
- Nós podemos usar o "boca a boca" e nos tornamos defensores para as mulheres que encontrarmos pessoalmente. (FIXME)
- Nós podemos informar Grupos de Usuários Linux, encontros Linuxchix, clubes universitários e escolas.
- Nós podemos dizer ao Debian Weekly News sobre nossas atividades.
Como podemos chegar até pessoas que estão interessadas mas não falam Inglês?
- O projeto Debian Women já está atraindo pessoas das mais diferentes línguas, especialmente falantes do Espanhol. (FIXME)
- Nós gostaríamos de fazer o projeto Debian Women acessível a todos aqueles que não falam Inglês.
- Listas multi-língua podem ter seus benefícios e algumas desvantagens, e poderia ser difícil de administrar. Elas também podem fragmentar o projeto Debian Women.
- Desde que o projeto Debian Women tem muitas pessoas que falam Espanhol, um canal de irc em Espanhol foi criado.
- Boletins regulares para todas as línguas estão sendo planejados para as listas de discussão.
Notas da Reunião
A reunião começou às 21h 02min UTC do dia 20 de novembro de 2004.
Parte 1: Apresentações
DD = Desenvolvedor Debian, NM = Novo Mantenedor (alguém que está aplicando para se tornar DD), AM = Gerente de Aplicação (alguém que supervisa o progresso do NM).
Helix pediu para que todos se apresentassem e nos dissessem um pouco sobre onde estão, no que estão interessados sobre Debian, o que estão fazendo atualmente. O resumos das respostas:
- helix é Erinn Clark, a líder desse projeto. Ela mantém o lyx e está na fila do NM.
- helen é Helen Faulkner. Ela mantém alguns pacotes, está envolvida com o projeto Debian Women e está na fila do NM.
- kandinski é Javier Candeira. Ele é o fundador do Barrapunto, um usuário Debian e quer se tornar um DD assim ele poderá votar dentro do Debian.
- mechtilde é uma nova usuária Debian. Ela vive na Alemanha e está transferindo uma base de dados do windows para o linux.
- alys é Alyx Lucas-Williams. Ela vive no Reino Unido, trabalha numa escola de segundo grau e usa o Debian desde 2001.
- Madkiss é Martin Loschwitz, ele escreve artigos de linux para os jornais.
- mons é Ricardo Mones. Ele é Espanhol, tem usado linux por vários anos e está na fila do NM.
- Nafallo é Christian Bjälevik. Ele é da Suécia, é um estudante e está interessado em contribuir para o linux.
- Naima é Magni Onsøien. Ela vive na Noruega, usava Debian no passado, e está interessada em porquê há tão poucas mulheres desenvolvedoras de código fonte aberto. (FIXME)
- nanda é Fernanda Weiden. Ela é do Brasil, utilza linux desde 1997, ajudou a organizar a debconf4, está envolvida em projetos feministas para ensinar mulheres sobre software livre.
- moray é da Escócia. Ele é um DD e um AM para o processo de novos mantenedores.
- stargirl é Hanna Wallach. Ela está usando Debian desde 1999 e co-mantém dois pacotes Debian, mas ainda não entrou no processo de NM.
- alonika é Sasha. Ela é da Espanha e está usando linux desde 2001. Ela é estudante de Engenharia da Computação.
- maxx é Martin Würtele. Ele é da Austria, e tem usado debian desde o Slink. Ele trabalha num ISP (Internet Service Provider - Provedor de Serviços Internet).
- sTone_heAd é Rudy Godoy. Ele é do Peru. Está utilizando linux há 6 anos e trabalhando no debian há 3, mais na l10n espanhola. Ele está na fila do NM e mantém alguns pacotes.
- womble é Matthew Palmer, da Austrália. Ele é um DD e um AM, mantém vário pacotes e é o autor principal de alguns deles.
- akk é Akkana Peck. Ela está utilizando debian há 3 anos e é desenvolvedora de software. Está pensando em aplicar para NM. (FIXME)
- mush é Geordie Birch. Ele é do Canadá e está utilizando Debian desde 1999.
- anja é ANa Guerrero. Ele vive na Espanha, estuda ciência da computação, utiliza debian há um ano e ajuda em traduções e no wiki do Debian Women.
- Atari-Frosch é Sabine Engelhardt. Ela vive na Alemanha, utiliza Debian desde 1997 e é uma administradora de redes.
- bab is Ben Burton, da Austrália. Ele utiliza Debian há vários anos, é DD e mantém a maioria do KDE e dos pacotes matemáticos.
- Baby is Miriam Ruiz, da Espanha. Ela usa linux há algum tempo e é uma evangelizadora de software livre.
- burbuja é Lorena Giraldo, da Colombia. Ela está utilizando Debian desde 2002, empacota PLR e aplicou para o NM.
- dar é Dafydd Harries de Wales. Ele é do time de tradução Welsh do Debian, mantém alguns pacotes, e está no NM.
Part 2: Discussion
Helix started the discussion by explaining that the Debian Women project was started by herself and Amaya as a result of some discussions on Debian lists about how to get more women into Debian. She pointed out that it helps to feel welcomed by a group, as the number of people at this meeting demonstrates. She said that we are lacking clarity about how to get more women involved.
- Alys said that she feels intimidated by #debian. Helix and helen agreed that this can happen and people can behave badly. Bab said that he felt the same way in the beginning with #debian-devel, but then he realised it was the same couple of people over and over again.
- Akk was discouraged by the early trolling on the #debian-women mailing list, but thinks this channel is great.
Helix then asked everyone what they like about the Debian Women project and how can we reach out to people and improve it? Will this improve Debian in the long run and is that a goal of ours?
- Alys loves this channel because you meet nice people.
- Akk thinks the project will improve Debian, because Debian has lots of projects that are not well maintained, and getting different sorts of people involved as DDs will help. Naima agrees with this, saying that participation from all user groups improves the quality of a product. Bab commented that getting feedback from helen on software he has written has been useful in the past, because she was interacting with the computer in a different way to him. Helen agreed that women in Debian are currently so rare that we have a lot to offer by comparison, just by being a little different, on average.
- Maxx thinks the trolls are not the majority in Debian.
- Atari-Frosch only heard about the project yesterday and thinks that it's great.
- Kandinski pointed out that the Debian Women project has two roles to play. Representing Debian towards women and representing women towards Debian. He pointed out that most of the discussion in the channel has been centred on making Debian culture more palatable to women. The other role is making Debian as a project realise that women (or any other under-represented group) are good for the health of a project.
- Helen added that this project has the potential to make Debian more welcoming towards anyone, not just women. Many people agreed with this and with kandinski's comments.
- Burbuja likes the Debian Women project because it doesn't discriminate against anybody. Helix and nanda point out that the mailing list seems to be about equally subscribed by men and women.
- Kandinski commented that Debian's apparently heirarchical structure seems to be missing the benefit of ad-hoc collaboration, and is offputting to many people. Bab disagreed with this, but observed that some people in Debian behave as though the hierarchical structure were there.
- Nanda said that if we have a mailing list or a group to include more women in Debian projects, it is important for the men to respect the need for a space where women feel comfortable to discuss the problems they are having. Helix agreed, but reminded us that one of the objectives of the project is to help the women to become stronger. Helen hopes that the need for a particularly women-friendly space will disappear over time. Nanda thinks this will take a long time. Helen observed that the rate of change of women entering NM is very encouraging.
- Daf commented that having more women in the project will make the project better, but that having women involved in Debian is a worthy goal in and of itself, and should not be seen merely as a way to improve Debian. Several people agreed with this.
- sTone_heAd sees Debian Women as an entrance and meeting point for people (especially women) into Debian. Once they feel comfortable with Debian they will have much to offer. Helix agreed with this.
Helix then posed the question of how we can get word out about Debian Women without attracting trolls or being slashdotted.
- Bab agreed that not all publicity is good publicity.
- Daf wondered what Debian Women's message to the world is, and whether Debian Women can succeed without lots of attention from the outside world.
- Atari-Frosch offered to translate texts into German.
- Kandinski suggested outreach programs to schools to send the message that Debian is not just for boys. He also suggested that it is important to make an impact on young people, before they are set in their ways, and that female role models are needed.
- Burbuja suggested a streaming radio program for publicity to get more women involved.
- Naima pointed out that since only 1% of Debian Developers are women, getting that up to say 2% will be an important goal.
- Helix said that the problem is in two parts. First to let women know that they are strong enough and welcome to contribute, and secondly to let people know that Debian is not a boys club any more. She observed that there are new women joining the Debian Women project on a daily basis, but that we need many more people involved before we can think of extensive outreach activities.
Helix then asked the meeting what can Debian Women do in the immediate future that we are not doing already?
- Helen said that we can encourage interested people to think harder about becoming developers. Several people seem to be interested in joining the NM queue in the near future. Anja said that the first step is to teach people about how Debian works. Maxx pointed out that the NM process is slow at the moment anyway. Kandinski commented that networking is an important part of the NM process.
- Daf asked whether the Debian Women will go on forever, or whether the goal is to make itself redundant by changing things so that it is no longer necessary. Helix said that ideally yes, the project would make itself redundant in the long term.
- Atari-Frosch suggested, as a first step, speaking with women who use computers privately, to encourage them to use linux. Helix suggested a "random acts of evangelism" day, and wondered where we could locate interested women. sTone_heAd said that it happens to her often anyway. Helix suggested making a document that could be passed to people in real life. Kandinski suggested going to university clubs. Anja suggested local Linux User Groups. Various people agreed with both these suggestions. Using linuxchix meetings as a starting point was also suggested. mechtilde suggested publishing a list of Linux User Groups where women would already be present. Helix agreed that this should go onto the wiki, where people can add their own groups in.
- Daf pointed out that we can all be advocates to the women we meet personally. Helix was concerned that some women could feel insulted by the suggestion that they need support from the Debian Women project, but that most don't feel that way once they have interacted with the project. Helen suggested that we should aim to get people reading the mailing list or interacting on irc, and go from there.
- sTone_heAd suggested publishing a monthly bulletin about Debian Women activities.
- Naima said that visibility of the project is important and that the Debian Women project members should be supportive of one another. Helix agreed that visibility is important but difficult to achieve.
- Daf said that in his opinion the Debian Women project is already a success, although the work is not finished yet.
Helix then commented that many of the Debian Women are Spanish speakers. Would a Spanish list be helpful? It is difficult to gauge the situation with non-English speakers because they don't interact with the project.
- Kandinski believes such a list would be necessary to get Spanish speakers involved. Helix asked whether the Spanish speakers present could set up a list? Anja thinks this could be possible.
- Daf reminded us that there was a previous discussion about having a multi-lingual list. He thinks that would be better than having multiple lists. Helix asked what people think about having the main Debian Women list be multilingual. Several people think this is a good idea, depending on the volume of email. Daf would enjoy it.
- Helen suggested that the linguists on the list could help by translating non-English emails into English afterwards. Daf agrees that this should and would happen. Atari-Frosch said this might be too much work.
- Kandinski thinks that multilingual lists are frustrating unless everyone speaks all the languages. Moray said it might scare people off. Helix agrees that moray has a reasonable concern. Anja thinks that a multi-lingual list is not a good idea.
- Helix summarised the situation that we can either have several lists, which people would have to run, or have a multi-lingual list, which several people disagree with. Either way, there will be difficulties with coordination, requiring translations or posting between lists. Naima, helix and daf expressed concern that the project might fragment if we had multiple lists. Kandinski points out that if the project gets too big to handle and fragments it is a success.
- Baby wondered whether it is actually possible to join Debian if you don't speak English. If it is not possible, maybe it is not a good idea to try to attract people who do not speak English to Debian.
- Several people believe it is not really possible to join Debian without English. Daf suggested that maybe it should be possible, but that is a separate matter. Moray agreed with daf, seeing as Debian's multilingual focus is more aimed at users, whereas Debian Women is primarily about getting people involved as DDs. Helen pointed out that there are ways to contribute to Debian without becoming a DD, but agreed that knowing English is essential.
- Naima pointed out that it depends on what is meant by "joining Debian", since it is possible to use it without knowing English.
Kandinski offered to arrange hosting for a debian-women-es list on barrapunto. Moray pointed out that alioth could be used to host lists. Daf said that lists on alioth might be perceived as second class. Maxx suggested that many people own servers and that hosting a list is not going to be a problem. Helix is concerned about trying to get a debian-women-es@lists.debian.org list, since it might be controversial. Helen asked whether splitting the list into two to create a Spanish list would be well received within Debian or not, and whether it would help Debian or not. Bab commented that most of the language-specific lists on lists.debian.org are for users rather than developers, and that it might be better to register the list somewhere else, to avoid conflict. He also said that several lists specific to different regions are already being hosted elsewhere, such as debian-au, and that there would be no bad implications in doing that.
- Daf suggested that reaching out to speakers of other languages should be brought up on the mailing list again, rather than trying to come to a conclusion about it now. Anja suggested that creating an irc channel for Spanish speakers would be a good idea. Several people agreed with this.
- sTone_heAd suggested getting Debian-Women's activities included in Debian Weekly News. Maxx agreed with this idea. Helix is worried about the idea of having a specific section for Debian Women in DWN. Maxx summarised with the suggestion that a DWN-like newsletter or summary, with translations to several non-English languages is a preferred option at this stage. Helix agreed with this, along with a #debian-mujeres (Spanish debian women) irc channel.
- The meeting diverted to a discussion about where and when and how the minutes would be posted. Naima is doing research into this topic and may contact people privately in the future. The point that public logs of the meeting may not be posted was reiterated, and people were reminded that these minutes would be posted to the wiki.
Helix declared that the meeting was closed as of 22:51 UTC.
Much cheerful conversation ensued for at least the next few hours 