reply re. portals
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|* serve as a CategoryCategory with better presentation/wording than a simple page list (show basic info on a general topic, list related pages from simple to complex)||* serve as a CategoryCategory with better presentation/wording than a simple list of page (show basic info on a general topic, list related pages from simple to complex)|
Multimedia (portal) (from https://salsa.debian.org/nodiscc2-guest/awesome-linuxaudio)
Macros: DebPkg:, DebMan:bash.1|bash
- Add Wikipedia links if relevant
Work in progress
- Add Arch Wiki links if relevant
- Linux volume management
Command line interface:
It looks like you have some good plans against the wiki mess, I haven't followed the details but I can only agree with the cleaning work, orphaned pages, not categorized ones, duplicate ones and what else. If you want we can discuss this somewhere, it might help if we're several agreeing on what needs to be done.
Hi ccts, for many years I found it was hard to search for information on the debian wiki, pages are not discoverable, many pages were drafts, there was duplicate/contradictory information... so recently I started following some broad guidelines:
- Make the wiki more readable, navigable, accessible, refresh some older content
- Deduplicate/merge content across pages on topics I understand, or use links.
- Merge pages that have almost no content with their "parent" page, in general avoid creating extra pages when the content could fit in an existing page. No one will maintain them.
- Standardize portals, use them as landing pages that any user from any knowledge level can understand and find information from.
Add categories to all pages, Redirect CategoryCategory pages to their respective portal, add fullsearch macros for the Category on the portal page
Standardize page names/formatting, spacing, link syntax, link cleanup... (?EditorGuide)
- I have amassed a good amount of Debian docs on a personal wiki, wanted to merge some of it here, but couldn't cleanly do it without some refactoring (still ongoing)
Everything linked from FrontPage should be high quality content
- Delegate explanation/description of general concepts to Wikipedia (copy intro, link to WP page)
I gave fullsearch a try to (see Game page for an illustration), so we're on the same line.
- You may use the Cached version when you think you're done with the category. I admit I don't remember when the cache gets regenerated unless you explicitly click to do it.
- You may add the lang:en search parameter, which means translators also have to replace it with the right one. That also means categories which are named after a language shouldn't exist (only some french ones existing IIRC).
Using fullsearch has a few drawbacks, some Debian wiki pages mostly contain list of software, with comments... (lists with DebPkg shortcut) so if you switch to a FullSearch list, you won't be able to put comments on each line. Some people used them to "recommend" some packages over others but I don't think this should be the main purpose of a wiki. Also, making lists is the purpose of categories, so logically, pages shouldn't need the fullsearch macro to do that, and people would navigate using the categories. Right now there are a few redirections (url rewrite in wiki admin?), I believe they could be removed if we want to give back their purpose to categories.
Right now I have no big idea, maybe I'll do nothing but if I attempt to join your efforts I may have an eye on the orphaned pages, as there should be none IMO. I also feel some pages content turned quite old or irelevant so we don't have to hesitate too much to delete their content. That's what I think you have been doing so it's probably no big news.
I'm unsure these wiki issues have been discussed within Debian lately, I'm not part of any team, this should also clarify my words are in no way something official
- You may use the Cached version when you think you're done with the category
- add the lang:en search parameter
Good, I will do that.
some Debian wiki pages mostly contain list of software, with comments... (lists with DebPkg shortcut) so if you switch to a FullSearch list, you won't be able to put comments on each line.
I will probably not switch those pages, I mainly user FullSearch on portals:
- Each page is attached to one or more categories
- Each Category page redirects to the corresponding portal
- The portal has plain paragraphs that introduce common topics; these paragraphs, in turn link the detailed pages about the subject.
At the bottom of the portal there is a FullSearch for the corresponding category - this ensures less frequent topics are also visible and discoverable from the portal - and can be later merged, or improved. Or a proper paragraph/link can be added to introduce them.
We could use Category pages for this, but far less people will visit them, and it takes more maintenance. FullSearch on the corresponding portal is much more visible, and it "forces" us to keep the page list clean/short - something lang:en and the current cleanup will help solving. See for example CommandLineInterface where it makes content duplication/too many pages symptom very evident.
When all pages from a category are cleanly linked from the corresponding portal page, FullSearch is indeed not needed. But this is almost never the case.
- we don't have to hesitate too much to delete their content
I read each candidate for deletion completely to make sure no interesting content would be lost, and move it to other pages if needed.
- I'm unsure these wiki issues have been discussed within Debian lately
I left a message on #debian-www IRC about this, and no one seems to disagree (got no answer at all ). So I guess it's fine, as long no one reverts my changes
The Game page looks great!
I left a message on #debian-www IRC about this, and no one seems to disagree (got no answer at all
You didn't stick around long enough for anyone to comment. Please keep your IRC client in the #debian-www channel and join the debian-www mailing list, there has been at least one discussion about you there:
Some more thoughts, I have mixed feelings about the "Portals" idea.
1) I believe the most common way for people to navigate is by doing a search, rather than going through portals to find infos. By the way, is it only me, or the Title/Text buttons resize when you click on them? (using Firefox).
2) If I refer to the wiki homepage, there are 2 pages I feel like I'd want to click, Desktop and eventually Software (only eventually, maybe because I already know this page likely doesn't contain the kind of informations I'm looking for). Talking for me of course, some people might find the "News" link very handy, or others, I don't know.
My point is most people might just skip the portals, so i'm not sure it's right to make it look like they're central parts of the wiki. They might be good guidance for some users new to Debian, but they might be overwhelming too (in particular, I don't find the intro and the tables full of links very useful).
Anyway, both is very fine to me :), and it's not wrong either to bring these portals one step further, since they are already here. Cleaning already makes most of the job.
@ccts I agree with everything you said. Portals have 2 valid uses:
- discover the wiki by following links from the front page
serve as a CategoryCategory with better presentation/wording than a simple list of page (show basic info on a general topic, list related pages from simple to complex)
A good category system helps discoverability (and when the search does not return good results, which is often for me), and keeping/managing reasonable inventories of pages.
But I agree that it should not be a central part, navigation should use interpage links and good page names/search results as much as possible. There are too many portals/categories, and the presentation is debatable (the fancy table is harder to maintain than a plain list, there is too much whitespace...).
At the moment they help me tracking work on other pages, but I'm all for cutting down their number/simplifying them. On FrontPage, there are 14 portals listed, which is reasonable, but there are actually many more CategoryPortal pages.
I'll keep trimming down outdated/too verbose/duplicate/"leaf" pages and hopefully we'll have a clearer view of how to do the rest.