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Comment: Responses to Mark's questions.
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more on moinmoin themes
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Current wiki.d.o layout (theme) isn't very nice, still Moinmoin can be nice. some ideas : | Current wiki.d.o layout (theme) isn't very nice, still Moinmoin can be nice. some ideas [http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket ThemeMarket], [http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinScreenShots ScreenShots]: |
Email: [mailto:fpiat@bigfoot.com?subject=DEBIAN_WIKI: fpiat@bigfoot.com] (put DEBIAN_WIKI in the subject.)?BR Homepage: [http://www.klabs.be/~fpiat/][[BR]] Location: Paris, France (was Lille, France)
Debian Wiki
Are you Mad at me ? If you got mad because of some "clean-up" i have made, please :
Undo and do how you feel it would be the best for wiki.debian.org.
Forgive me. I am not doing it because it's funny (trust me, it isn't funny to spend hours removing or merging pages). I'am not willing to bother people (I know that some people spent quite some time writing those pages).
- Read more below to understand why i am doing this.
Some ideas about what Debian Wiki is :
Focus on what's useful to Debian - is the page useful ? is the page related to debian ?
Some ideas about what Debian Wiki isn't:
wiki.d.o isn't www.debian.org/doc/ - avoid duplicating the official documentation
wiki.d.o isn't packages.debian.org - don't just duplicate package description and meta-data here.
wiki.d.o isn't a manpages repository. - don't just duplicate a manpage here
wiki.d.o isn't wikipedia - link to wikipedia, rather duplicating content here (especially for non-debian specific)
wiki.d.o isn't dictionary - don't create a page to merely define a term. link to online dictionary if needed.
wiki.d.o isn't jargon file - same as dictionary and wikipedia above.
Some best practice for wiki editors :
less is more : Perfection is not when there is nothing to add, but when there is nothing to remove. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery). To put it another way, Once you have finished to write a page, it's time to consider to make it shorter
Obsolete content should be 1)Updated 2) Deleted ... or exceptionally, 3)Preserved for Historical purposed (and marked as such). note: oldstable isn't obsolete content, it IS current.
- Subscribe to the page you are interested in.
- recommend the use of proper terms (X11, XWindow and Xorg aren't interchangeable words..)
Theme
Current wiki.d.o layout (theme) isn't very nice, still Moinmoin can be nice. some ideas [http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket ?ThemeMarket], [http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinScreenShots ScreenShots]:
http://wiki.winehq.org/ (I'm not fan of the colors though)
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/TitleIndex This one is very clean
http://wiki.ethereal.com/TitleIndex some good ideas here too
More on [http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl:TitleIndex+-inurl:trac].
Also, Apache.org is caching their [http://wiki.apache.org/general/ wiki] pages.
.plan
Many wiki page contains merely a few words or links, often, not related to Debian at all.
Merge duplicate pages : The older debian wiki (on debian.net?) had a different structure (mostly based around ?DebianWikiTopics). That content was never merged with the newer "FrontPage" layout. people have created new pages from scratch.
- fix broken links
see WantedPages
- wiki.debian.net migration : ask webmasters to update their links to *.org
then : use a search engines for external broken links, like [http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22This+page+does+not+exist+yet.+You+can+create+a+new+empty+page%22+site%3Awiki.debian.org ?p="This+page+does+not+exist+yet"+site=wiki.debian.org]
My log
Here's a very incomplete log of my activities on this wiki :
- 2008-01-27
Ask improvements to manpages.debian.net (supporting, [http://manpages.debian.net/man/1/bash] syntax )
- 2008-01-27
- create ["DEHS"].
- 2008-01-23
- create ["Grub/Grub2"] pages.
- 2008-01-13
- create ["Grub/SplashImage"]
- 2008-01-13
["ModulesAll"], major improvement.
- 2008-01-10
- '07 Q4 cleanup.
- 2008-01-07
- create ["DebianWiki/Browsing"].
- 2007-12-30
- create ["Opera"].
- 2007-12-16
- create ["DeviceDatabase/USB"], ["DeviceDatabase/PCI"]
- 2007-12-15
- create ["ipw2200"]
- 2007-12-14
- rewrite ["LSB"]
- 2007-11-24
create ["DebianWiki/TranslationNamespace"].
- 2007-11-21
InstallingDebianOn : Let me write here what I think about my DebianOn initiative on this wiki (since DebConf7, and I talked to Petter Reinholdtsen +talk?FootNote(hardware detection options and solutions) : It's broken by design : It should be in a database ! (i.e queryable ; statistics ; much easier to report with an assistant, etc.)
- 2007-11-17
- create ["iwlwifi"]
- 2007-11-10
create ["?DebianLive/HowTo/SmallSizeImage"]
- 2007-11-01
- create ["iSCSI"], ["iSCSI/iscsitarget"], ["iSCSI/open-iscsi"] pages
- 2007-10-31
create ["CategoryPermalink"], then tagging many pages.
- 2007-10-23
- create ["rt.debian.org"] page
- 2007-10-07
["DebianWiki"] pages started.?BR add GUI to HowToIdentifyADevice/* (thanks to SalokineTerata) ?BR ?DebianWiki/WikiVote page started.
- 2007-09-30
ModuleAssistant / major improvements.
- 2007-09-27
DebianReleases "child" pages are completed (good enough for now, at least).
- 2007-09-18
Howto make a ["ScreenShots"] page.
- 2007-09-16
improve and add links to talks for DebConf*
- 2007-09-08
- converted wiki.debian.net links to wiki.debian.org.
- 2007-09-07
cleanup old ?RemoteWikiLinks (DebianPackage, ?DebianPts, ?DebianPackages, bts )
- 2007-08-14
?InstallingEtchStepByStep project started.
- 2007-08-14
- Glossary started.
I stop updating my log, i think you have the idea : I intend to cleanup wiki.d.o !
- 2007-08-08
what about wiki-pages for packages ? looks like duplicate with packages.debian.org to me. (see ?MetaPackages in http://wiki.debian.org/nanos?action=recall&rev=1 )
- 2007-08-07
Merged "From Windows To Debian" and FromWindowsToDebian (plus related cleanup) ?BR Merged *X_Window_System* ?BR Merged *WindowManager* ?BR Merged *Desktop environment*
- 2007-08-06
Prepare the merged ?DotNetFrontPage, ?OldFrontPage to FrontPage
- 2007-08-06
- Major cleanup around "Debian Enterprise" pages.
- 2007-08-05
- 2007-08-05
InterWiki Migration : Cleaning-up "RemoteWikiURL" links from old wiki.d.o (based on kwiki). ?BR RemoteWikiURL were used in http://zwiki.org/ to declare others wiki. (many wiki pages were needed in thoses zwiki days.. deprecated today)
- 2007-06-05
- HowToIdentifyADevice pages started
- 2007-05-28
InstallingDebianOn project started.
My ToDo
actually delete ?OldFrontPage
- continue cleaning pages... starting at letter "D"
Various pages require some work / cleanup :
kernel pages : *Kernel* ; LinuxKernel ; *BSD* coreutils - Merge with BashCommands, PrincipalCommands - ConsoleSurvival <=> Console - See Debian's qref DebianWikiTopics <=> FrontPage ? FluxBox : merge DebianFluxbox and FluxBox* PackageManagement PackageInstallTips,DebianPackage,apt-get,AptGet /Reinstall CompleteRemove About / HelpForBeginners <= merge w/ NewBoot <= ReadmeFirst <= WikiMeta <= ToDo + HelpWanted Merge : DebianNeo, Neo, Newbie, newbie, NewBoot + UsefulLinux Merge : "From Windows To Debian" + WindowsEquivalent + WinAppEquivalents UTF-8 update status. For Users For Windows users For BSD & Linux users DistUpgradeIssues (UnofficialSargeReleaseIssues) what about Etch ? (Xorg ; Apache...) EtchTODOList close! DebianDeveloper + DebianUser Tips and Tricks
Visitors comments
MarkHobley wrote (unindented text)
FranklinPiat answers (bullets)
I suggest adding discussing articles, prior to deletion.
- I think i've probably deleted about 500~1000 sub pages from this wiki. There are probably a few hundreds more to delete. The general rule is that I'm not gonna ask people it everybody agrees, for time consideration (even though i sometime send the author some comments by email).
- If someone disagrees, he/she can revert my change, or send me a message.
If I disagree with him/her reverting, I send him/her a message (no edit war ;-)
You have deleted stub articles, and the reason that they are stubs, is because the technical details or information is not currently known by the author, so they are awaiting expansion.
We had so many stubs that this wiki mostly provided deception, not information !
Also you have deleted some articles relating to the technical internals of the packaging database. Many of the official documents are crap, incomprehensive and virtually useless (for example the packaging manual).
- We are in opensource world... such improvement should be done "upstream". (i.e. I think the best approach is to contact the manual's author and help him improving/re-writing the documentation)
Wiki documents are a good supplementary source of information.
- I agree.
BTW : supplementary as in does not duplicates existing information ? see above.
I feel that it is better to expand a stub than to delete it.
Humm.... yes and no. See my rational above. Also, if a page is really useful, people actually improve it quickly (see ["FlashPlayer"] or ["iwlwifi"] for instance). but I would say that if no one else contributed to it for a few month, it's unlikely to ever happens ( IMHO ).
Also comments like "In Debian packages are either installed or not" does not help an administrator who really does want to install part of a package.
- I can't find this. was it a commit's comment, or within a page ?
Just because Debian does not support this, does not mean that there is not a hack or workaround. I think that hacks and workarounds are sometimes useful.
I don't remember this one either. 1. If it's a bad practice, we shouldn't document it. 2. If it isn't recommended, we should state it (like Opera, rpm/alien...) 3. other not supported stuffs can be documented, i guess.
If a program isn't packaged for Debian, I think we shouldn't mention how to install it here (Installing programs manually is ugly...).
If a .deb exist (and is maintained), we could document it (I won't blame one for that... see Opera!).
PS: How do I undo a deletion?
Open the deleted page, click on ?GetText(Info), then click on "revert" to the last known good version.
- Thank you for your feedback. I've taken into consideration you arguments.