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||<tablestyle="width: 100%;" style="border: 0px hidden">~-Translation(s): none-~||<style="text-align: right;border: 0px hidden"> (!) [:/Discussion:Discussion]|| |
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Your recontributin is welcome : | Your contribution is welcome : |
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[[TableOfContents(2)]] | [[TableOfContents(3)]] |
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Easy to search :: It should be easy to search. 1. English version should be presented if localized version isn't available. 2. Find a page using localized words (assuming the user clicks "Full-text" search). Easy to identify the purpose of the page (#Subject) :: [[Anchor(Subject)]] Is it easy to identify what's the subject of a page, according to it's title ? SupportFrench and InstallDebian.pl are prone to confusion), as opposed to {{{fr.wiki.debian.org/Support}}}. Easy to identify language used (#IdLang) :: [[Anchor(IdLang)]] Is it easy to identify what's the language ? A French visitor couldn't guess if he should click on ''Support'' or ''Assistance'' to get the French version... Linking translated pages (#OtherLng) :: [[Anchor(OtherLng)]] Make it easy to find the same page in other languages moinmoin don't have a feature to automatically connect (link) localized version of a page). Moinmoin CamelCase linking (#MmLnk) :: [[Anchor(MmLnk)]] Does Moinmoin create link automatically ? page containing a slash ("/") or a period (".") doesn't work, like InstallDebian/French or InstallDebian.fr . However, single word are never converted as links by moinmoin, so it's not really an issue. Country code collision (#IsoColl) :: [[Anchor(IsoColl)]] ".pl" can be the short for ''perl'' or ''polish'' Language name collision (#LangColl) :: [[Anchor(LangColl)]] Some language may be spelled the same way in their local language. Translated word collision (#WrdColl) :: [[Anchor(WrdColl)]] the word for Installation is the same in French and English. Problem mapping pages(#Map) :: [[Anchor(Map)]] It should be easy to find the different version(language) of a page, in case link is missing. Page not translated :: When a page isn't translated, the visitor should be directed to the English version. URL truncated by MUA (#TruncURL) :: [[Anchor(TruncURL)]] Some links may get broken by some MUA, like [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware].fr [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware(fr]) relative links (#RelLnk) :: [[Anchor(RelLnk)]] breaks relative links : "../Subpage" in Hardware/Wifi must be rewritten "../../Subpage/French" for Hardware/Wifi/French short URLs (#ShortURL) :: [[Anchor(ShortURL)]] it's best if URL don't become too long. unlike : [http://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Latitude/PortugueseBrazil] |
[[Anchor(Search)]] Easy to search (#Search) :: It should be easy to search. 1. English version should be presented if localized version isn't available. 1. Find a page using localized words (assuming the user clicks "Full-text" search). [[Anchor(Subject)]] Clear page subject (#Subject) :: Is it easy to identify what's the subject of a page, according to it's title ? {{{SupportFrench}}} and {{{InstallDebian.pl}}} are prone to confusion), as opposed to {{{fr.wiki.debian.org/Support}}} or pl/!InstallDebian. [[Anchor(IdLang)]] Clear page language (#IdLang) :: Is it easy to identify what's the of a language ? A French visitor couldn't guess if he should click on {{{Support}}} or {{{Assistance}}} to get the French version (since both words are synonyms)... [[Anchor(OtherLng)]] Linking translated pages (#OtherLng) :: Make it easy to find the same page in other languages.(moinmoin don't have a feature to automatically connect/link localized versions of a page). [[Anchor(MmLnk)]] Moinmoin CamelCase linking (#MmLnk) :: Does Moinmoin create link automatically ? page containing a slash ("/") or a period (".") doesn't work, like {{{InstallDebian/French}}} or {{{InstallDebian.fr}}} . However, single word are never converted as links by moinmoin, so it's not really an issue since editors have to write {{{["Foo"]}}} anyway... they can write {{{["fr/Foo"]}}} too. [[Anchor(IsoColl)]] Country code collision (#IsoColl) :: {{{.pl}}} can be the short for ''perl'' files or ''polish'' translations. [[Anchor(LangColl)]] Language name collision (#LangColl) :: Some language may be spelled the same way in their local language (?). [[Anchor(WrdColl)]] Translated word collision (#WrdColl) :: The word ''Installation'' is the same in French and English. not to mention that nouns, projects name , brands, technologies aren't translated : {{{Debian}}}, {{{DebianInstaller}}}, {{{iSCSI}}}, {{{HP}}}. [[Anchor(Map)]] Problem mapping pages(#Map) :: It should be easy to find the different versions/languages of a page, in case link is missing. [[Anchor(NoTrnsl)]] Page not translated :: When a page isn't translated, the visitor should be presented the English version. [[Anchor(TruncURL)]] URL truncated by MUA (#TruncURL) :: Some links may get broken by some MUA, like [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware].fr [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware(fr]) [[Anchor(RelLnk)]] relative links (#RelLnk) :: breaks relative links : "../Subpage" in Hardware/Wifi must be rewritten "../../Subpage/French" for Hardware/Wifi/French. [[Anchor(ShortURL)]] short URLs (#ShortURL) :: it's best if URL don't become too long. unlike : [http://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Latitude/Etch/PortugueseBrazil] |
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||[#fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware] || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || {X} || {X} || | ||[#fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_rewrite]|| (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || ||[#fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_vhost] || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || {X} || {X} || |
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||<-12> Possible tricks || ||[#wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub] || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || (./) || |
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* (./) The namespace doesn't support the feature properly. | * (./) The namespace supports the feature properly. |
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== wiki.debian.org/Materiel = | == wiki.debian.org/Materiel == '''Cons:''' |
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'''Pros:''' * Easy to search information for non-english people |
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=== Multiple moinmoin instances === Create multiple moinmoin wiki instances. |
[[Anchor(fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_vhost)]] === fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (vhost) === Create multiple moinmoin wiki instances in multiple virtual hosts. |
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=== Apache rewrite URLs === ''Assuming we use Apache to rewrite fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware to wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware''. We would need to hack moinmoin to fallback to English version. |
[[Anchor(fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_rewrite)]] === fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (rewrite) === Use Apache to rewrite fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware to wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware. We would need to hack moinmoin to fallback to English version. |
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* The pages are accessible through multiple URI (fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware and wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware) which could lead to a major confusion ! | * The pages are accessible through multiple URI (fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware and wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware) which could lead to a major confusion (accidental deletion) ! |
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== wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware == | == wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware == |
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= Possible Tricks = The following tricks can be used to improve some of the above proposal. [[Anchor(wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub)]] == wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub == Create ''linker'' to help non-english people to find article by title search tool? * (optional) To help user that doesn't speak English, you can create a ''linker page'' named "Initial of language" + "/" + "!PageInNativeLanguage". This page redirect to the English page with the content {{{#redirect "Language" + "/"+ "!NameOfReferentPage"}}} * Example: * Linker page: fr/!QuelqueChose * Content of the linker: {{{#redirect fr/Something}}} * English page: fr/Something '''Pros :''' * non-english people can Search article by title. '''Cons :''' * Extra maintenance cost. * Does searching [BackLink] works ? = History = * PaoloPan proposal for {{{<language-identifier><page title in english>}}}, on [http://wiki.debian.org/WikiMeta?action=recall&rev=44 2005-08-15]. * debian-www [http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2007/10/threads.html#00277 Debian Wiki: Give your opinion] thread on the mailing list, on 2007-10-21. * Add SalokineTerata's [http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/TranslationNamespace/Discussion?action=recall&rev=3 proposal] : [#wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub] = Resources = * [http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/po/] list of locales |
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CategoryProposal | [[Anchor(wikivote)]] = WikiVote = Please read ["DebianWiki/WikiVote"] for instruction: ''Vote start 05/01/2008 and will finish 15/01/2008'' * wiki.debian.org/Materiel * fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (vhost) * fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (rewrite) * wiki.debian.org/Hardware/French * wiki.debian.org/!HardwareFrench * wiki.debian.org/Hardware.Fr * wiki.debian.org/Hardware.fr * wiki.debian.org/French/Hardware * wiki.debian.org/!FrenchHardware * wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware * wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware [:SalokineTerata:1] * wiki.debian.org/!FrHardware * wiki.debian.org/!DebFr/Hardware * wiki.debian.org/!DebFrHardware MailingLists contacted on @lists.debian.org: debian-i18n, debian-l10n-english, debian-www ---- CategoryWiki |
Choosing a page namespace for Internationalizing DebianWiki : This page attempts to list various problematics and constraints to be taken into account before choosing a namespace... This should help choose the best solution.
Your contribution is welcome :
- Add more constraints / needs below.
- Add more namespace proposal.
- Add brilliant ideas on how to implement those namespaces too !
?TableOfContents(3)
Constraints and needs
?Anchor(Search)
- Easy to search (#Search)
- It should be easy to search.
?Anchor(Subject)
- Clear page subject (#Subject)
Is it easy to identify what's the subject of a page, according to it's title ? SupportFrench and InstallDebian.pl are prone to confusion), as opposed to fr.wiki.debian.org/Support or pl/!?InstallDebian.
?Anchor(IdLang)
- Clear page language (#IdLang)
Is it easy to identify what's the of a language ? A French visitor couldn't guess if he should click on Support or Assistance to get the French version (since both words are synonyms)...
?Anchor(OtherLng)
- Linking translated pages (#OtherLng)
- Make it easy to find the same page in other languages.(moinmoin don't have a feature to automatically connect/link localized versions of a page).
?Anchor(MmLnk)
- Moinmoin CamelCase linking (#MmLnk)
Does Moinmoin create link automatically ? page containing a slash ("/") or a period (".") doesn't work, like InstallDebian/French or InstallDebian.fr . However, single word are never converted as links by moinmoin, so it's not really an issue since editors have to write ["Foo"] anyway... they can write ["fr/Foo"] too.
?Anchor(IsoColl)
- Country code collision (#IsoColl)
.pl can be the short for perl files or polish translations.
?Anchor(LangColl)
- Language name collision (#LangColl)
- Some language may be spelled the same way in their local language (?).
?Anchor(WrdColl)
- Translated word collision (#WrdColl)
The word Installation is the same in French and English. not to mention that nouns, projects name , brands, technologies aren't translated : Debian, DebianInstaller, iSCSI, HP.
?Anchor(Map)
- Problem mapping pages(#Map)
- It should be easy to find the different versions/languages of a page, in case link is missing.
?Anchor(NoTrnsl)
- Page not translated
- When a page isn't translated, the visitor should be presented the English version.
?Anchor(TruncURL)
- URL truncated by MUA (#TruncURL)
Some links may get broken by some MUA, like [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware].fr [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware(fr])
?Anchor(RelLnk)
- relative links (#RelLnk)
- breaks relative links : "../Subpage" in Hardware/Wifi must be rewritten "../../Subpage/French" for Hardware/Wifi/French.
?Anchor(ShortURL)
- short URLs (#ShortURL)
it's best if URL don't become too long. unlike : [http://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Dell/Latitude/Etch/PortugueseBrazil]
- sub-locales
- People from Brazil will appreciate if we handle pt_BR nicely.
Summary
This table is a summary of the alternatives below. |
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Sample page name |
[#?IdLang] |
[#Subject] |
[#?WrdColl] |
[#?IsoColl] |
[#?RelLnk] |
[#?OtherLng] |
[#TruncURL] |
[#ShortURL] |
[#Map] |
[#Search] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/Materiel] |
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[#fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_rewrite] |
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[#fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_vhost] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/Hardware/French] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/HardwareFrancais] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/HardwareFrench] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/Hardware.Fr] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/Hardware.fr] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/French/Hardware] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/FrenchHardware] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/FrHardware] |
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[#wiki.debian.org/DebFr/Hardware] |
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Possible tricks |
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[#wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub] |
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Legend :
The namespace doesn't support the feature properly
The namespace supports the feature properly.
? Undecided / Not clear, yet.
Alternatives
The following are various alternatives for translation page names for a sample 'Hardware' page. ?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/Materiel)
wiki.debian.org/Materiel
Cons:
- Subject collision : The same word can be used for different subject in different languages
- Language collision : two language can use the same word.
- Difficult to guess the page language (see point above).
- Difficult to list other languages-version of a given page.
- Difficult to present English page if {lang} doesn't exist.
Pros:
- Easy to search information for non-english people
?Anchor(fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware)
fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware
This can be achieved by two means :
?Anchor(fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_vhost)
fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (vhost)
Create multiple moinmoin wiki instances in multiple virtual hosts.
Cons
- Editors would have to create their accounts in each instances.
- Non-english visitor wouldn't be able to search in English pages (someone proposed to use English as underlay, which could solve this.).
?Anchor(fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware_rewrite)
fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (rewrite)
Use Apache to rewrite fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware to wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware. We would need to hack moinmoin to fallback to English version.
Cons
- The pages are accessible through multiple URI (fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware and wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware) which could lead to a major confusion (accidental deletion) !
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/Hardware/French)
wiki.debian.org/Hardware/French
Cons
Breaks ?SubPages relative Links.
- If we wanted to have a page about "I18n/French", we should name it "I18n/French/French" and "I18n/French/English" ! (that's unlikely to happend)
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/HardwareFrench)
wiki.debian.org/HardwareFrench
Cons
Can be ambigous : consider ?WhyFrench ; ?SupportFrench, etc..
The URL could become long for some language (esp. ?PortugueseBrazil)
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/Hardware.Fr)
wiki.debian.org/Hardware.Fr
Cons
some links may get broken by some MUA => [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware].fr
- very confusing (.pl for perl or polish) ?
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/Hardware.fr)
wiki.debian.org/Hardware.fr
Cons
some links may get broken by some MUA => [http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware].fr
- very confusing (.pl for perl or polish) ?
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/French/Hardware)
wiki.debian.org/French/Hardware
The URL could become long for some language (esp. ?PortugueseBrazil)
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/FrenchHardware)
wiki.debian.org/FrenchHardware
Can be ambigous : consider ?FrenchWhy ; ?FrenchSupport, etc..
The URL could become long for some language (esp. ?PortugueseBrazil)
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware)
wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware
Help ! any cons ?
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware)
wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware
Help ! any cons ?
Pros :
Even better than "/Fr/*", since a wiki page name should start with an uppercase, we know that a page matching regexp:^[a-z]{2}/.*$ is a localised version.
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/FrHardware)
wiki.debian.org/FrHardware
Cons
?DeInstall ?=? Desinstall ? (I hope you don't have dyslexia problem).
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/DebFr/Hardware)
wiki.debian.org/DebFr/Hardware
Cons
- Longer, than "Fr/*" !.
(I guess It was actually a short for ?DebianFrFoobar )
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/DebFrHardware)
wiki.debian.org/DebFrHardware
- Longer, than "Fr/*" !.
?DebDeInstall ?=? ?DebianDesinstall ? (I hope you don't have dyslexia problem).
Possible Tricks
The following tricks can be used to improve some of the above proposal.
?Anchor(wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub)
wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub
Create linker to help non-english people to find article by title search tool?
(optional) To help user that doesn't speak English, you can create a linker page named "Initial of language" + "/" + "PageInNativeLanguage". This page redirect to the English page with the content #redirect "Language" + "/"+ "!NameOfReferentPage"
- Example:
Linker page: fr/!?QuelqueChose
Content of the linker: #redirect fr/Something
- English page: fr/Something
- Example:
Pros :
- non-english people can Search article by title.
Cons :
- Extra maintenance cost.
Does searching [BackLink] works ?
History
PaoloPan proposal for <language-identifier><page title in english>, on [http://wiki.debian.org/WikiMeta?action=recall&rev=44 2005-08-15].
debian-www [http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2007/10/threads.html#00277 Debian Wiki: Give your opinion] thread on the mailing list, on 2007-10-21.
Add SalokineTerata's [http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/TranslationNamespace/Discussion?action=recall&rev=3 proposal] : [#wiki.debian.org/fr/Materiel stub]
Resources
[http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/po/] list of locales
?Anchor(wikivote)
WikiVote
Please read ["?DebianWiki/WikiVote"] for instruction:
Vote start 05/01/2008 and will finish 15/01/2008
- wiki.debian.org/Materiel
- fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (vhost)
- fr.wiki.debian.org/Hardware (rewrite)
- wiki.debian.org/Hardware/French
wiki.debian.org/!?HardwareFrench
- wiki.debian.org/Hardware.Fr
- wiki.debian.org/Hardware.fr
- wiki.debian.org/French/Hardware
wiki.debian.org/!?FrenchHardware
- wiki.debian.org/Fr/Hardware
wiki.debian.org/fr/Hardware [:SalokineTerata:1]
wiki.debian.org/!?FrHardware
- wiki.debian.org/!DebFr/Hardware
wiki.debian.org/!?DebFrHardware
?MailingLists contacted on @lists.debian.org: debian-i18n, debian-l10n-english, debian-www
?CategoryWiki