(See DebianNeedsProblemSolvingWorkingGroups for the proposal)
I think I'm getting the whole point of this proposal: "Debian developers are not doing what I say". If you want to influence a specific part of debian, the easiest way for an individual to do that would be with most of debian working in groups, so you have a smaller list of people to convince.
You want to be able to convince one person with the power to tell the others in an individual volunteer organization made up of people with large egos who expect respect. If Debian tried that, many developers would leave.
Here's how you can get your ideas out better today:
Debian has something similar to what you are proposing already, the BTS (bug tracking system).
You make a proposal for a change in say, KDE. There is a general package called "kde" that you file a bug against, and give as much detail, pros, cons, etc. to get your point across and why it should be done. After that, you can talk to the developers in that bug or on the lists, or can do work yourself.
You have with each bug:
- One "list" for each issue, and anyone interested can join.
- Each issue is archived for later reference.
You make reference to the kernel developers. Remember that the groupings the Linux Kernel have settled upon were done in an ad-hoc sort of way and were not mandated by anyone. And there are no users in that hierarchy. You do good work, can work with the others above and below and move up in the chain. --MikeFedyk
A few remarks to the statement "Debian developers are not doing what I say":
- I (Thomas) am not a DD, so I have nothing to say. I therefore do not have to convince anybody.
- A mailing list with hundreds if not thousand developers is anonymous, nobody cares if a DD is only whining and not doing real work. That is the problem of debian-devel. Since Debian's development depends on debian-devel this is also Debian's problem.
- Some developers are neglecting the BTS. The issue of unresponsive maintainers has been brought up on debian-devel several times but no conclusion has been reached. Where do I file a bug concerning this problem?
Replace "Debian developers are not doing what I say." with "Debian developers are not listening what others have to say." then you are getting my point. And: My proposal is not about telling a whole organization what to do. Even if one person in a working group would convince all others in the same group you are still not done: This small working group has still the task of explaining all other Debian developers why the chosen solution would be the best way to solve the problem. This is not likely to succeed if the working group has been talked into it and is not truly convinced.
Mike, I find this discussion very productive. Perhaps we can find a solution which others may find interesting? This process of finding a solution is exactly the thing I wrote in the proposal about. This process could happen in such a working group. We are just two, imagine how vivid and productive this discussion would be if there were about 7 people.
The BTS comes close to but is not really the structure I am referring to in my proposal... On a second thought, you could be perfectly right. The BTS could be used for problem-based working group discussions. If there was a pseudotarget in the BTS (like wnpp, let's call the target debian-infrastructure), one could for example file a bug titled "Slow release cycles" against debian-infrastructure, and people really concerned about slow release cycles would sign up for the bug. --Thomas