1 18:00 * pere_ = Petter Reinholdtsen
2 18:01 * h01ger = Holger Levsen
3 18:01 < pere_> so, who writes the summary?
4 18:01 < h01ger> do you mean, you or me? ;)
5 18:02 < h01ger> anybody else here?
6 18:02 < pere_> well, no summary from last time, and that is a shame.
7 18:03 -!- pere_
8 18:03 < pere_> h01ger: we seem to be alone, yes. :)
9 18:03 -!- sfds
10 18:03 < pere_> newcomers, please let the log collector know your name by using /me = Full Name
11 18:04 < pere_> I'm not sure if jever is going to collect this meetings log either, or if that was just left from last time like my name as the moderator was.
12 18:05 < h01ger> i collect logs (and can upload them, too)
13 18:05 * jever = J<FC>rgen Leibner
14 18:05 < jever> Hi, I'm a little bit late
15 18:06 < pere_> akai bgrotan binar bip birdy bjoernen Bman^ C14r danielsan ettin finnarne H jemtland jorgenhg k4x klausade luk_ markos__ oskar64 sfds TheLaw Tolimar Werner white winnie zobel: if you a
16 re present, please indicate using /me = Full Name.
17 18:06 * sfds patrick hasenfeld
18 18:06 < pere_> so, we still lack someone willing to write the summary after the meeting, and posting it to the mailing list. any volunteers?
19 18:07 * luk_ = Luk Claes
20 18:08 < pere_> h01ger: good. can you update the wiki to document it?
21 18:08 < h01ger> done
22 18:09 < pere_> Without anyone writing the summary, the results of this meeting will not be know to the rest of the project. I am very reluctant to continue without a volunteer for it.
23 18:11 < h01ger> i'm a bit reluctant to continue with 4 people...
24 18:11 < h01ger> this is boring
25 18:11 < pere_> h01ger: well, if all the four have interesting things to say, it can be a productive meeting. :)
26 18:11 < h01ger> i could rather go to the kitchen and get the debconf-logs from the -edu powerpc install and compare them with the debian-install...
27 18:12 < h01ger> pere, right
28 18:12 < pere_> luk_: are you willing to write the summary?
29 18:12 < jever> the last times there where no summary too
30 18:13 < pere_> jever: yes, really a pitty. so very few know what happened during that meeting.
31 18:13 < jever> and not many guys at meeting
32 18:13 < pere_> if I had been more awake, I would have noticed it during the meeting. :)
33 18:14 < pere_> jever: are you willing to write the summary?
34 18:14 * jever would like to hear about slbackup-php and asks himself where the author is
35 18:15 * h01ger takes the stick and offers to write summary
36 18:15 < h01ger> grumbl.
37 18:15 < h01ger> :)
38 18:15 < pere_> h01ger: great.
39 18:15 < h01ger> \o/
40 18:15 -!- pere_
41 18:15 < jever> pere: I cannot do, I'm happy to be able to join here today :(
42 18:16 < jever> Thanks, h01ger
43 18:16 < pere_> who want to say something about backup solutions?
44 18:16 < h01ger> isnt the old backup solution not in etch anymore, so we need a new one?
45 18:16 < jever> the old wasn't usable for teachers I think
46 18:17 < pere_> h01ger: half of it, at least. the admin interface was a webmin plugin.
47 18:17 < jever> ... in disaster case
48 18:17 < pere_> slbackup is the active part, and it is still present.
49 18:17 < h01ger> pere, ah. ok. so we need a new one. next topic? ;) (which is slbackup-php=
50 18:17 < h01ger> )
51 18:18 * pere_ have no idea about the backup system, and hope someone who know it can let us know if slbackup-php is usable?
52 18:18 < pere_> Werner is the author of slbackup, and I believe he wrote the old webmin module too.
53 18:19 < pere_> anyone tested slbackup-php yet?
54 18:19 < jever> no, I prefered to kick it and use backuppc ;-)
55 18:20 < pere_> how is it better?
56 18:20 < h01ger> finnarne wrote slbackup-php in case you dont know - which i doubt, but mentioning it wont hurt
57 18:21 < pere_> anyone want to say more about backup solutions? If not, I suggest we move on as we have no-one with opinions on the topic.
58 18:21 < jever> it is better, because it provides gui for users, ...
59 18:21 < h01ger> slbackup-php is still in etch-test, should we move it to etch, to get more testing?
60 18:21 < h01ger> jever, is backuppc on the dvd?
61 18:21 < pere_> h01ger: I am not convinced that in it self will get any more testing.
62 18:22 < h01ger> a bit
63 18:22 < jever> yes, I think so
64 18:22 < pere_> jever: is backuppc preseedable?
65 18:22 < jever> think so
66 18:22 < h01ger> really?
67 18:22 < h01ger> i mean, how much?
68 18:22 < jever> but I cant do it I'm not aware of doing it
69 18:23 < jever> I have to learn that first
70 18:23 < jever> :)
71 18:23 < jever> but as pere told me I put it on with ignore in svn
72 18:23 * h01ger uses backuppc at a customer, or rather a customer uses it and i maintain his config files, and those are plain scripts. doesnt really look preseedable in his environmnet
73 18:23 < pere_> jever: can you and finnarne discuss backup solutions, and see if you can agree on the solution for etch? I believe finnarne wrote slbackup-php, to get something working in time for e
74 tch, not because he really wanted a new backup slution.
75 18:25 < jever> I have no time for anything the next weeks, but I agree to use slbackup-php and that what finnarne did with slbackup for use in debian-edu
76 18:25 < pere_> switching to next topic in 30 seconds...
77 18:25 < pere_> jever: right. exams?
78 18:25 < jever> no, I'm 44 years old, it's just work
79 18:26 < jever> :)
80 18:26 < pere_> right.
81 18:26 < pere_> I find the backup situation to be quite well, with two options to chooce from with debian packages already available. :)
82 18:26 * h01ger nods
83 18:26 -!- pere_
84 18:27 < pere_> who want to go first?
85 18:27 < h01ger> #418610 is fixed in unstable. is that also fixed in debian-edu? (and causes problems)
86 18:28 < jever> I bought a dvd-writer for testing the dvd, but then work catches me and I had to give up doing anything
87 18:28 * h01ger filed some bugs today. which were mostly about the status of the cds (i386 and powerpc)
88 18:29 < pere_> h01ger: the menu item value issue is as far as I know, fixed both for debian and debian-edu.
89 18:29 < h01ger> in debian thats a post-etch change?!
90 18:29 < pere_> h01ger: when the package is built for unstable, the values are the new values, and when built for terra the values are /100.
91 18:29 < h01ger> ah. ic. nice
92 18:30 < pere_> I added a rule to edit the DEBIAN/control file just before the packages are wrapped up.
93 18:30 < h01ger> good
94 18:30 * pere_ saw the bugs, but have not had time to read them.
95 18:31 < h01ger> after the meeting i'll compare the debconf-preseeding for the powerpc-bootloader installer in debian and edu and hopefully come up with something :)
96 18:31 < h01ger> but it looks like ppc is almost there
97 18:31 < pere_> I have done some testing, and the i386 DVD is working quite well in qemu, at least.
98 18:31 -!- sdfs
99 18:31 < pere_> what exactly can be said to be missing for us to make the release?
100 18:32 < h01ger> documentation
101 18:32 < h01ger> fine tuning
102 18:32 < pere_> I've seen klausade claim that samba is broken. no idea how or what causes it.
103 18:32 < pere_> also, the root desktop should have some links/iconds to the admin intrafaces
104 18:33 < pere_> klausade mentioned during the last development gathering, that the partitioning question should mention that one had to accept to get the automatic intsaller going.
105 18:33 < pere_> if that should happen, someone need to write the new text and we need to collect new translations.
106 18:35 < pere_> any comments?
107 18:35 < h01ger> pere, i noticed etch also doesnt have localisation-config, only etch-test.
108 18:35 < pere_> h01ger: just as well, as localization-config do not work at all.
109 18:35 < h01ger> then rather remove it?
110 18:36 < h01ger> (or fix it)
111 18:36 < pere_> but I believe we need it to get the correct X keyboard into ltsp.
112 18:36 < pere_> I plan to fix it to a point where it set the ltsp keyboard.
113 18:36 < pere_> (or find another solution, if a good one exist. :)
114 18:36 < h01ger> ok. so keep the status quo for now
115 18:36 < pere_> also, I suspect we want to use it to set the default dictionary
116 18:37 < pere_> the status page claim the KDE spell checker isn't set up correctly.
117 18:37 < pere_> did anyone test a german install lately? Did it work as it should?
118 18:37 < pere_> I mostly test norwegian and english myself.
119 18:38 -!- sfds
120 18:39 * h01ger mostly installs in english to be able to forward meaningful error strings :) (for ppc probs usually)
121 18:40 -!- sep
122 18:40 < pere_> it would be interesting to know if KDE, OOo and other things are correctly localized in German, now that localization-config isn't available.
123 18:40 < pere_> (and the other languages, of course, but our biggest non-norwegian user base is germany .:)
124 18:40 * h01ger nods. -> summary
125 18:41 < h01ger> (the request for testers will go into the summary)
126 18:41 * sep = Ronny Aasen
127 18:41 < pere_> so, is the status page, <URL: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Status/Etch >, up to date? are there known issues missing, or some fixed issues listed?
128 18:41 < sdfs_> kde an OOo is localized in german
129 18:41 < jever> may be that an email on germans users list will animate some more testers
130 18:42 < pere_> sdfs_: good. is it enabled by default with german install of debian-edu?
131 18:42 < sep> seams the samba issue is still missing. i did request klaus to add it.
132 18:42 < pere_> sep: well, just add a short note so we remember it. I have no idea what the problem was, thought.
133 18:42 < sdfs_> it is enabled by default but keyboard of thinclients is english
134 18:43 < pere_> sdfs_: right. that thin client problem is common for all, and I plan to look at it.
135 18:43 < sep> i added a genric note
136 18:43 < pere_> sdfs_: a quick workaround is to do 'chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg'
137 18:44 * h01ger had broken /e/a/sources.list after standalone installs here. but i hope the fix for the security mirror setting will fix that. pere, would you mind to upload a fixed debian-edu packag
138 e or can i? (i dont mind who does, who gets to do it faster should do.. IMO)
139 18:44 < pere_> (the real fix is to pass the debconf value from the host system to the ltsp chroot.
140 18:44 < pere_> h01ger: I assume you mean a fixed d-e-install package?
141 18:45 < pere_> h01ger: can you write a test to detect the broken sources.list file, and add it to d-e-c/testsuite/?
142 18:46 < pere_> so, 15 minutes left. anyone want to add anything to this topic before we move on?
143 18:46 < h01ger> hmmm. probably. but i care more about the bootloader atm.. :/
144 18:46 * h01ger looks at this testsuite dir now anyway. testsuites are cool :)
145 18:46 < pere_> h01ger: it would be nice to automatically verify that the problem is fixed, and don't return. :)
146 18:47 < sdfs_> please add the debian edu keyring to the ltsp sources.list to verrify packages
147 18:47 < pere_> I guess we should release a new test version soon.
148 18:47 < h01ger> yeah. but a meaning full test for a correct+meaningfull sources.list is a bit hard
149 18:47 < pere_> sdfs_: good point. can you add that to the status/etch wiki page?
150 18:47 < sdfs_> k
151 18:47 < pere_> h01ger: well, start by detecting the single problem you have found soo far.
152 18:48 < pere_> ok. moving on.
153 18:48 -!- pere_
154 18:48 < pere_> anyone want to comment on it?
155 18:48 * h01ger has replying to those mails on his todolist for the weekend :)
156 18:49 < h01ger> basically i realized, taht if they want to deploy debian-edu next year, they will deploy debian-edu etch. so they should test the dvd *now*
157 18:49 < pere_> h01ger: good point.
158 18:49 < h01ger> to check if gnome is there and works, spanish translations, etc
159 18:50 < pere_> though we might look at releasing based on testing, as it now has security support.
160 18:50 < h01ger> the problem is the software they have+need which is not in debian. flash, java, squeak.
161 18:51 < pere_> well, java is in unstable and flash might be replaced with gnash or the lib(something). not sure about squeak.
162 18:51 < h01ger> which could be solved with a generic way of integrating a add-on cd, which they probide :)
163 18:51 < pere_> s/unstable/non-free/
164 18:52 < h01ger> i dont think gnash (yet) works as (well) they need a flash to work
165 18:52 < h01ger> and squeak is in theory free software, but practice there are some licence issues yet to be solved..
166 18:52 < pere_> h01ger: could be. if not, we will have to consider alternatives. the license of macromedia flash prohibits distribution, so it can't even go into non-free. :(
167 18:52 < pere_> h01ger: I suspect those issues are already solved. at least I read somewhere that alternative fonts could be used.
168 18:53 < pere_> h01ger: It would be great if they could get their packages into contrib or non-free, at least, to ease access to them.
169 18:54 < h01ger> pere, $propietary_crap will be wanted/needed by someone $always. so creating a useful workaround (customizable add-on cds) could be a nice long term solution, until $propietary_crap i
170 s completly gone from the earths surface
171 18:54 < h01ger> pere, they want to deploy stable. not unstable. :) and stable is stable, no changes possible. (in debian, but also soon in -edu)
172 18:55 < pere_> h01ger: sure. but that should not stop us from trying as hard as possible to provide an free out of the box solution. :)
173 18:55 < h01ger> surely not :)
174 18:55 < pere_> h01ger: well, it can't be 'no changes possible', because then it soon became unusable when new hardware require a new kernel or a new X server, for example.
175 18:56 < pere_> did you check out <URL: http://developer.skolelinux.no/design/services-linex.html >?
176 18:56 < h01ger> briefly, yes
177 18:56 < h01ger> why?
178 18:56 < pere_> DNSMasq seem interesting. perhaps a better solution?
179 18:57 < h01ger> aehm, new hardware, kernel, x: i heard we have those problems in debian. and i'll believe the etch+0.5 kernel when i see it :) kernel 2.6 is still a moving target...
180 18:57 < h01ger> for dns or for dns+dhcp?
181 18:57 < pere_> for dns+dhcp, I thought.
182 18:58 < h01ger> i'm^wi was not happy with dnsmasq as a dhcp server, switched backed to dhcpd
183 18:58 < sep> i was not happy with dnsmasq either
184 18:58 < pere_> I suspect we want to move to autodiscovery (avahi) instead of our current dns-based service discovery system.
185 18:58 < h01ger> yeah, post etch :)
186 18:58 < pere_> h01ger: ok. that is good to know.
187 18:59 * h01ger doesnt like avahi. first thing i turn off personally. for -edu it might make sense, though
188 18:59 * sep had to disable avahi on lots of machines
189 18:59 -!- jredrejo
190 18:59 < h01ger> jredrejo, ! hola :)
191 18:59 < pere_> h01ger sep: why?
192 18:59 < sep> it uses .local something that's often used in internal windows AD domains.
193 19:00 < h01ger> pere, i dont want the services i run on my laptop to be announced to the world.
194 19:00 < sep> why could it not use .avahi or .this-is-autodns-so-it-could-be-anything
195 19:00 < sep> the effect was that external dns worked. but the nix machines failed to resolve anything internally.
196 19:01 -!- schasi
197 19:02 < pere_> sep: right. sound bad.
198 19:03 < pere_> so, I guess this meeting is complete. than you for joining. When is the next one?
199 19:03 < h01ger> 14d?
200 19:03 < jredrejo> h01ger: hi all, sorry for the delay, but children take so much time ...
201 19:03 < sep> have you discussed the looping mail from firstname.lastname@example.org ?
202 19:04 < h01ger> jredrejo, hehe.
203 19:04 < sep> is 2 weeks to short time ?
204 19:05 < sep> i have not had time to do anything useful. since it's a hectic RL nowadays, i had hoped to get to spend more time on the netinstall
205 19:05 < pere_> sep: it isn't looping. it is a new email every time.
206 19:05 * h01ger just pasted the discussion about linex to jredrejo in a private /msg
207 19:05 < h01ger> sep, its half way until the gathering in trondheim
208 19:05 < pere_> h01ger: 14 days is fine with me.
209 19:06 < jever> fine for me too
210 19:06 < pere_> sep: I suspect the problem is the load on developer making svn up take more than 5 minutes.
211 19:06 < jredrejo> hi all, just to comment some of the previous discussion threads:
212 19:06 < sep> pere_, but it it failing becouse it's locked as a result of a interupted svn and needs attention. like svn cleanup as builder. or is it failing becouse it's allready running and the load
213 is hiigh
214 19:06 < pere_> sep: I believe it is failing because another svn is already running.
215 19:07 < pere_> it just occured to me that we do not have to update every 5 minute. Reducing to every 15 minute.
216 19:07 < jredrejo> propietary licenses in linex:
217 19:07 < jredrejo> - squeak is being relicensed to MIT, so it shouldn't be a problem
218 19:07 < jredrejo> - about flash, we always can include an internet flash installer, easy to access, I don't want to include flash plugin in any cd (and I think I can not do it because of its license)
219 19:07 < sep> pere_, i have not seen any other svn in the process list
220 19:07 < sep> but i might not have rights to view that
221 19:08 < jredrejo> and about the integration with debian-edu. Our plans are trying to converge on lenny launch, to have time enough to test everything. Maybe next year we could do a previous test on e
222 tch, but I am not sure it will be a good idea, as at that time, most of etch desktop software will be obsolete
223 19:09 < pere_> jredrejo: squeak is still listed on <URL: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/unable-to-package >
224 19:09 < jredrejo> - about dnsmasq: we use it because it's really easy to use and integrate ,
225 19:09 < jredrejo> and it also supports avahi, but we are not using that feature
226 19:10 < jredrejo> pere_: I know, the squeak foundation are contacting with all the previous squeak programmers to relicense their code. They haven't finished it yet, so it's still under the Apple lic
228 19:10 < pere_> jever: we already include the flash installer package on the DVD, I believe.
229 19:10 < jredrejo> but the main obstacle: Apple has already agreed with that change, so it shouldn't take too long
230 19:10 < pere_> jredrejo: great to hear. can it go into non-free in the mean time?
231 19:11 < jredrejo> maybe, but I don't think it's worth the effort to get it into non-free for a short time
232 19:11 < pere_> jredrejo: did I understand the web page correctly, that you include debian packages using flash as their runtime?
233 19:11 < jredrejo> anyway, we have it packaged in our own repositories
234 19:12 < pere_> jredrejo: what is the work to get it into non-free if you already have it packaged?
235 19:12 < jredrejo> pere_: packages depending on flashplugin-nonfree,
236 19:12 < jredrejo> but, not the plugin itself
237 19:12 < pere_> jredrejo: can these packages run with gnash or any other free flash implementation?
238 19:13 < jredrejo> pere_: discussing it in Debian legal took a long time a couple of years ago, and reopening the thread could be terrible , specially if you are not english spoken or lawyer as me.
239 19:13 < pere_> if the packages are free software, they can (and probably should be) uploaded into contrib.
240 19:13 < jredrejo> pere_: not yet, gnash is not very complete
241 19:14 < pere_> jredrejo: can you list the packages on <URL: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/FlashInDebianEdu >, to put them on our radar?
242 19:14 < jredrejo> that's one of the things I would like to ask you: those packages are free, but they are only in spanish, they are things like language tutorials, math exercices, etc. what is the D
243 ebianEdu policy in those cases, if the sources are not internationalizated and only available in one language
244 19:15 < jredrejo> pere_: I will do it, thanks for the link
245 19:15 < h01ger> jredrejo, so would it be ok for you, to install debian-edu from cd/dvd, where you added a linex-installer udeb, which then adds some linex apt-repository to sources.lists and installs
246 packages from there?
247 19:16 < jredrejo> h01ger: yes, it would be ok, but in the future I want to avoid mixing repositories. In an ideal world we only should have the Debian repository. But, by now, that's the only solutio
248 n I can find
249 19:16 < pere_> jredrejo: I thought the debian-legal discussion was about putting it into debian/main, not debian/non-free?
250 19:16 < h01ger> jredrejo, yes, sure. i'm just asking as you want to deploy debian-edu in 12month or so. and by then, we will only have etch...
251 19:17 < pere_> jredrejo: we have no debian-edu policy about languages.
252 19:17 < jredrejo> pere_:I don't remember all the terms, but I want to remember most of the discussion was centered on knowing if the current Squeak license is free or not
253 19:18 < pere_> jredrejo: we do have an intention to provide our packages in all relevant languages, of course.
254 19:18 < jredrejo> h01ger: yes, but as I said before, I think that release would only be a test to know if we can achieve our goals, but the total joining with DebianEdu would be with lenny. For the
255 test, almost anything could be "allowed"
256 19:19 < pere_> jredrejo: is there a list of all the special packages in linex available?
257 19:20 < pere_> jredrejo: something like <URL: http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/needs_love.html >, perhaps?
258 19:20 < jredrejo> pere_: ok, but providing the packages in all the languages is a question of a lot of time/or money. Most of those packages come from projects made by teachers paid by my regional go
259 vernment, but money doesn't go to translate it into "foreign" languages
260 19:20 < h01ger> jredrejo, i fully agree. great :)
261 19:21 < pere_> jredrejo: sure. sometimes volunteers show up to translate if the material is made available. :)
262 19:21 < jredrejo> no, there is not such listk, maybe it's another good idea. I would ask you all to add as many ideas or questions to http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/LinEx2DebianEdu-Roadmap to start
263 to work
264 19:22 < jredrejo> pere_: of course, all the material is available in our repositories, they are totally open and free, but not very known out from Spain, for obvious reasons.
265 19:22 < pere_> we have a lot of documentation only in norwegian, for example, which should be translated to other languages. for example, we have a sysadmin documentation following the ITIL standard
266 , but only in norwegian so far.
267 19:23 < jredrejo> if you like squeak you could take a look to things like http://apt.linex.org/linex2006/dists/cl/linexedu2006/binary-i386/matematicas/squeak-geometria_1.0-1_all.deb or http://apt.lin
269 19:23 < pere_> <URL: http://wiki.skolelinux.no/Dokumentasjon/ITIL >
270 19:23 < jredrejo> they are interactive books on geometry and algebra for secondary schools
271 19:23 < h01ger> jredrejo, this might be a good target for people outside of spain, who want to learn spanish and do something useful while doing so: translate this software :)
272 19:23 < jredrejo> Knut spoke me about ITIL, we have many things to study
273 19:24 < pere_> is it now time to close the meeting?
274 19:24 < jredrejo> h01ger: sure, I think the most interesting part for that people is our component linexedu2006, at http://apt.linex.org/linex2006/dists/cl/linexedu2006/
275 19:24 < pere_> jredrejo: please do /me = Full Name for the log, to ease the job of the summary writer. :)
276 19:24 < jredrejo> jredrejo: Jos<C3><A9> L. Redrejo
277 19:25 < pere_> jredrejo: it would be great if you could compare the package list currently in debian-edu with the list of packages used by linex, and list all the packages only in linex as ignore in
278 the debian-edu task files.
279 19:26 < pere_> jredrejo: instructions on <URL: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20070417.212210.f5b811b8.en.html >
280 19:26 < jredrejo> pere_: We'll work on it. Nex time we meet I hope I'll be able to give you that info
281 19:26 < pere_> this way we would at least get them on the DVD.
282 19:27 < pere_> we currently fill approximately 2.2 GiB of the DVD with packages listed in our task lists.
283 19:27 < pere_> OK. I close the meeting now. Got to go. Thank you alll for showing up, better late then never
284 19:27 < jredrejo> pere_: perfect, I don't think we will fill the remaining 2.5Gb
285 19:28 -!- pere_
286 genda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Meeting | please report findings in http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Status/Etch
287 19:28 * h01ger waves and leaves to
288 19:29 < h01ger> and as i just read the new topic ("make your changes ASAP"), a note to the cipux people: please get your package ready *fast*.
289 19:33 < jever> h01ger: please say that on #CipUX too
290 19:34 < h01ger> jever, done.
291 19:35 < jever> thanks
292 19:35 * markos__ = Konstantinos Margaritis
293 19:49 -!- sdfs_
294 20:09 < finnarne> just a quick note. If you want me to attend the meetings, it has to be moved, either to 21:30 CEST or to another day (not Tuesday before 20:30 CEST either)
295 20:11 < finnarne> and to use backuppc for a backup-solution, you have to write a new frontend to allow the teacher to reconfigure the backup.
296 20:12 < finnarne> (or add more functionality to the exiting frontend)
297 20:17 < finnarne> but better than me to attend meetings, is that someone actually tests the software written, especially those who critisize them, so one can actually get some feedback
298 20:35 -!- jever
299 20:38 < winnie> I can only second finnarne... atm the Thursday evening is very bad for me for meetings
300 20:38 < winnie> :S