1 19:00 < xorAxAx> we still need someone who wants to write a summary
   2 19:00 < xorAxAx> does anybody volounteer?
   3 19:00 -!- Olivier_54 [n=olivier@lns-bzn-50f-81-56-229-182.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
   4 19:00 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
   5 19:01 < xorAxAx> hmm
   6 19:01  * Amaya waves 
   7 19:01 < xorAxAx> hi Amaya 
   8 19:01  * white hugs Amaya
   9 19:01 < xorAxAx> so nobody who wants to write a summary? then i can do it
  10 19:01 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
  11 19:02 < xorAxAx> i expect that everybody has read the agenda
  12 19:02 < Werner> yes
  13 19:02 < xorAxAx> you will find that there is a list of topics and a link to a proposal that can be discussed tonight
  14 19:02  * Werner == Morten Werner Olsen
  15 19:02  * jemtland FrodeJemtland
  16 19:02 < xorAxAx> so i think we can start the meeting. please write who you are in order to simplify tracking for the big brother
  17 19:03  * white == Steffen Joeris
  18 19:03  * xorAxAx is AlexanderSchremmer
  19 19:03  * jever is J├╝rgen Leibner
  20 19:03 < xorAxAx> knuty: are you there? :-)
  21 19:03 < xorAxAx> k4x: how about you? :)
  22 19:04 < xorAxAx> ThierryForb is still missing as well
  23 19:04 -!- t9k062 [n=ircont9k@cpe-066-057-212-144.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #debian-edu
  24 19:04 -!- ana` [n=ana@208.Red-80-24-230.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #debian-edu
  25 19:04 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
  26 19:04 < knuty> xorAxAx: Yepp
  27 19:05  * Amaya knuddelt white 
  28 19:05 < ThierryForb> i'm present
  29 19:05 < xorAxAx> nice
  30 19:05  * Amaya knuddelt xorAxAx 
  31 19:05 < xorAxAx> Amaya: hehe :)
  32 19:05 < white> Amaya: thx :)
  33 19:05 < xorAxAx> ok, so we can start
  34 19:05 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
  35 19:05  * knuty Was writing an email to a person that want to engage in the promo-work for KDE in Norway to the press, but he don't know to translate from English to Norwegian
  36 19:06 < xorAxAx> knuty: yeah, we will need a pool of translators :)
  37 19:06  * ThierryForb Thierry Stauder
  38 19:06 < xorAxAx> i think we should start presenting the current plan
  39 19:06 < knuty> Nice
  40 19:07 < xorAxAx> jever was one of the main people involved there, but i will start
  41 19:07 < xorAxAx> for reference, you can open the pdf
  42 19:07 < xorAxAx> our plan is about a pile of wikis, like we have them now
  43 19:07 < xorAxAx> mainly one for each language
  44 19:07 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
  45 19:08 < xorAxAx> the ".org wiki" having a different rule as well - collecting of docs for developers
  46 19:08 < xorAxAx> every wiki will have a team
  47 19:08 < xorAxAx> people who volounteer to do a bit more than spurious users
  48 19:08 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
  49 19:08 < xorAxAx> these teams will communicate via the www-int mailing list
  50 19:09 < xorAxAx> they will decide which pages are important in the international context
  51 19:09 < xorAxAx> (i.e. which pages are important in the french and spanish wiki as well)
  52 19:09 < xorAxAx> they will tag them and suggest names in their own wiki for foreign pages
  53 19:10 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
  54 19:10 < xorAxAx> we think that this process allows the wikis to converge to a single model of structure
  55 19:10 < xorAxAx> without restricting them too much
  56 19:10 < xorAxAx> jever: do you want to add some details about the "workflow"?
  57 19:10 < k4x> xorAxAx: bin da
  58 19:10 < jemtland> So how should we "tag" the pages ?
  59 19:11 < knuty> xorAxAx: I've got a technical question about multi langual support.
  60 19:11 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
  61 19:11 < k4x> k4x = Kurt Gramlich
  62 19:11  * knuty == Knut Yrvin
  63 19:11 < xorAxAx> jemtland: there are two classes of tags. the first tag is "categoryInternational" (simply added to the page)
  64 19:11 < white> i have a remark, question
  65 19:11 < jever> technical details should explained by xorAxAx
  66 19:11 < xorAxAx> it means that the page should appear everywhere because it has "international relevance"
  67 19:12 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
  68 19:12 < white> xorAxAx: just a small question:
  69 19:12 < xorAxAx> and there is a tag which means "this page needs to be translated into language XYZ, having the pagename PageInicial there"
  70 19:12 < xorAxAx> (that will be a category as well)
  71 19:12 < xorAxAx> white: ok
  72 19:12 < Werner> the workflow.pdf is detailed enough in explaining the workflow, but we will also need some small documentation that describes how to do some of the "flows" :)
  73 19:12 < white> as a developer or a member of a developer team i want to be able to add pages into the wiki if i think they are important, would it be still possible? and i mean without asking a "Mailinglist" first
  74 19:12 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
  75 19:12 < xorAxAx> knuty: ok, you can pose it after white
  76 19:13 < xorAxAx> white: you can always add wiki pages!
  77 19:13 < white> where wiki means .org wiki
  78 19:13 < knuty> xorAxAx: Ack :-)
  79 19:13 < xorAxAx> white: anywhere you like! you the settlement on which page should appear in a french wiki is another kind of decision
  80 19:13 < white> xorAxAx: well and of course i mean wiki pages with international interest
  81 19:13 < xorAxAx> when you added it to the .org wiki
  82 19:14 < Werner> white: I guess the same should be the case with the local wiki's..
  83 19:14 < white> i am just talking about the .org wiki because i want to make sure that if needed a developer can add announcements or dokus there
  84 19:14 < xorAxAx> white: i think it would resolve like this: you add a page with a nice international topic
  85 19:14 < xorAxAx> white: either the wikiteam of .org thinks that it is internationally relevant or not
  86 19:14 < white> every development topic is of international interest :)
  87 19:14 < xorAxAx> white: dev topics are not to be translated in many cases IMHO
  88 19:15 < white> xorAxAx: and this is where i disagree sorr
  89 19:15 < xorAxAx> white: where exactly?
  90 19:15 < white> xorAxAx: internationally relevant means not a *must* for translation
  91 19:15 < xorAxAx> but anyway, this is a question of no. of volounteers/translators. and user docs should be i18ned first, right?
  92 19:15 < white> xorAxAx: can you pleas expand the point of the "international interest"-tag
  93 19:15 < xorAxAx> white: yeah, you dislike that?
  94 19:16 < xorAxAx> white: the reason for it is to show that wiki X thinks that the other wikis should accept that page as well
  95 19:17 < white> well i don't think that stuff for developers needs to be translated anyway
  96 19:17 < xorAxAx> white: yes, exactly the point
  97 19:17 < xorAxAx> most stuff doenst need to be translated
  98 19:17 < xorAxAx> wholly
  99 19:17 < Werner> we should at least make sure that .org contains the master-version of any devel-doc..
 100 19:17 < white> Werner: ACK
 101 19:17 < xorAxAx> Werner: yeah
 102 19:17 < xorAxAx> let me give an example ...
 103 19:17 < k4x> white: ACK
 104 19:17 < xorAxAx> there is this archive policy
 105 19:17 < white> Werner: and that every devel contribution should go there
 106 19:18 < xorAxAx> i think that we dont need it in german
 107 19:18 < xorAxAx> but kurt said that we should explain in german shortly what it is
 108 19:18 < xorAxAx> thats a good idea IMHO
 109 19:18 < white> xorAxAx: yes to explain it to the users, but not to give a guide for the developers
 110 19:18 < xorAxAx> i.e. this means an overview page should get translated
 111 19:18 < xorAxAx> white: right
 112 19:19 < xorAxAx> so i expect more dev-relevant pages to move to the .org wiki
 113 19:19 < xorAxAx> ok, knuty, you had a question
 114 19:19 < Werner> xorAxAx: I also have one question after knuty..
 115 19:19 < xorAxAx> Werner: no problem :)
 116 19:19 < k4x> knuty: now
 117 19:19 < knuty> Ok, when searching through the wiki, I've got a lot of pages
 118 19:20 < xorAxAx> knuty: the .org wiki?
 119 19:20 < knuty> Many of this are not relevant
 120 19:20 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
 121 19:20 < xorAxAx> right, you will see many debian pages that are not about debianedu
 122 19:20 < knuty> xorAxAx: wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu
 123 19:21 < knuty> xorAxAx: Thats right
 124 19:21 < xorAxAx> there are a few solutions, e.g. moving the debianedu pages to wiki.skolelinux.org or stuff like that
 125 19:21 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
 126 19:21 < white> waaaaaah
 127 19:21 < xorAxAx> or another search form could be  offered which appends "title:debianedu" to all search terms
 128 19:21 < jemtland> stopp...
 129 19:21 < xorAxAx> hehe :)
 130 19:21 < knuty> From a end user point of view it should be to practical things
 131 19:22 < white> i guess we will keep working *inside* the debian wiki
 132 19:22 < xorAxAx> knuty: or you could enter debianedu into the search form
 133 19:22 < knuty> 1. To limit the search concerning DebianEdu/Skolelinux issues
 134 19:22 < Werner> knuty: so you want to split up admin- and devel-documentation?
 135 19:22 < knuty> 2. and the other thing should be, as Werner already said, to make it possible to limit the search for admins.
 136 19:23 < Werner> I'm not following you about which pages listed as "relevant pages" that is not about DebianEdu/Skolelinux ..
 137 19:23 < xorAxAx> currently, the debian wiki is a debian wiki for everybody
 138 19:23 < k4x> to be inside debian wiki is a political thing but not user friendly for DebianEdu
 139 19:23 < Werner> or is that when you search the wiki?
 140 19:23 < xorAxAx> Werner: if he doesnt enter "debianedu", he will see many debian-only-pages
 141 19:23 < Werner> then we're talking about http://wiki.debian.org/ ?
 142 19:23 < xorAxAx> Werner: yeah, searching
 143 19:23 < knuty> Werner: e.g the ITIL-documentation I'm making now. The users wan't the ansver on some maintaining issues of Skolelinux and get 100 pages with developer info
 144 19:23 < xorAxAx> Werner: thats the same
 145 19:23 < xorAxAx> Werner: the search is over the whole wiki
 146 19:24 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
 147 19:24 < white> staying outside debian with the .org wiki would be a curse
 148 19:24 < Werner> knuty: what about making a page with links to the relevant admin-documentation?
 149 19:24 < xorAxAx> white: its not about staying outside
 150 19:24 < xorAxAx> an example ...
 151 19:24 < Werner> xorAxAx: is it possible to define a search for pages within the /DebianEdu/-tree?
 152 19:24 < xorAxAx> apache has ~ 100 moin wikis
 153 19:24 < knuty> Werner: Why make two wikis, if it's possible to limit the search to a ITIL directory?
 154 19:24 < xorAxAx> Werner: it is possible to have a special search form on a page that restricts the search
 155 19:25 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
 156 19:25 < Werner> xorAxAx: so maybe that is our solution to the search-problem?
 157 19:25 < xorAxAx> Werner: yeah, but that wont help people who expect the search form on the top to give exact results without "debianedu"
 158 19:25 < Werner> knuty: I do not want two international wiki's :)
 159 19:25 < white> Werner: me neither
 160 19:26 < knuty> xorAxAx: I also wan't the posibility to make a wiki to docbook (and docbook to wiki) solution that ICT operators could print out the wiki-doc as a nice pdf
 161 19:26 < h01ger> why not stay within wiki.debian.org and try to fix the problems (from a -edu point of view) - that will benifit everybody within/close to debian
 162 19:26 < Werner> xorAxAx: I know .. and we can't remove that search-field of course?
 163 19:26 < xorAxAx> Werner: he doesnt want either. he just doesnt want debian-generic stuff in his results if i understand it correctly
 164 19:26 < h01ger> s/try to//
 165 19:26  * white hugs h01ger 
 166 19:26 < xorAxAx> Werner: not without affecting all other users (the lonely non-skolelinux-debian guys) as well
 167 19:27 < xorAxAx> Werner: as long as they are anonymous
 168 19:27 < Werner> right.. but if we provide an additional search-field on the main-page ..
 169 19:27 < Werner> knuty: will that help?
 170 19:27 < h01ger> k4x, knuty: can/did you come up with a list of issues with wiki.d.o ?
 171 19:27 < xorAxAx> yeah, i think this search problem can we solved
 172 19:28 < xorAxAx> knuty: moin can generate docbook out of the box
 173 19:28 < knuty> Werner: I talk usability for people that don't want 100 irrelevant pages. They wan't 2-3 relevant ansveres to their question conserning problems with the printer, or setup of diskless workstations when seaching on thin clients.
 174 19:28 < xorAxAx> if! the debian.org admin had installed a more current version
 175 19:28 < xorAxAx> (i see a problem there)
 176 19:28 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
 177 19:29 < xorAxAx> knuty: you are talking about user documentation
 178 19:29 < knuty> xorAxAx: Yes, Petter told med four days ago. 
 179 19:29 < xorAxAx> i think the wiki.debian.org wiki doesnt contain much user info
 180 19:29 < Werner> knuty: yes, for those we will provide a search only within the DebianEdu/-tree .. ok?
 181 19:29 < xorAxAx> its mainly admin/dev
 182 19:29 < knuty> xorAxAx: Not quite. It's system-admin doc
 183 19:29 < xorAxAx> yeah
 184 19:29 < ThierryForb> we sould not waste time with technical problems I think, there's a solution for the search problem, let's talk about goals
 185 19:29 -!- markos_ [n=markos@ppp48-adsl-4.ath.forthnet.gr] has joined #debian-edu
 186 19:30 < xorAxAx> ok, we have an outstanding question if there should be a user-doc wiki in the english language
 187 19:30 < xorAxAx> we wont answer that tonight
 188 19:30 < xorAxAx> many people dislike the idea
 189 19:30 < knuty> ThierryForb: Thanks. 
 190 19:30 < xorAxAx> next point
 191 19:30 < knuty> My  thirdt point (question)
 192 19:30 < xorAxAx> knuty: yeah, please :)
 193 19:31 < xorAxAx> Werner: maybe the theme can be changed to special case /DebianEdu pages for search ...
 194 19:31 < knuty> xorAxAx: The user of the system-admin doc should also be able to submitt changes, improvement etc to the documentation without using svn
 195 19:31 < xorAxAx> Werner: shouldnt be a large modification
 196 19:31 < knuty> xorAxAx: They should get traced
 197 19:32 < Werner> knuty: traced like we do with sending all commit's to the commits-list?
 198 19:32 < xorAxAx> knuty: so you want to know if a wiki is the right choice for you? 
 199 19:32 < knuty> xorAxAx: 4. The system admin documentation should also be easily translated from Norwegian to English, French, German, Greece etc.
 200 19:33 < xorAxAx> such documentation differs from wiki pages to some regard - it is monolithic and quite large
 201 19:33 < knuty> Werner: Yes. The wiki support that today. It's really nice. But i write down my requirements to make the system admin doc usable in Norwegian, Enlgish, German etc.
 202 19:33 < xorAxAx> i know that there were many doc problems in the last years
 203 19:34 < knuty> xorAxAx: The wiki is greate. 
 204 19:34 < xorAxAx> and that there is currently a solution which provides translation of books
 205 19:34 < knuty> xorAxAx: That's a problem
 206 19:34 < xorAxAx> knuty: yeah. can you pose a concreete question? :)
 207 19:34 < xorAxAx> that alternative solution is not very wikilike, though
 208 19:35 < xorAxAx> i dont know its current status
 209 19:35 < xorAxAx> i think you need another meeting for that, knuty :)
 210 19:35 < xorAxAx> christian and david implemented it
 211 19:35 < knuty> 4. Does the wiki enable multilangual doc's with separate search for every language?
 212 19:35 < knuty> xorAxAx: agree
 213 19:36 < xorAxAx> knuty: if you have one wiki per language, it should work fine with the search
 214 19:36 < knuty> xorAxAx: Ok. Good enough.
 215 19:36 < xorAxAx> ok, to summarise the results till now - people dont dislike the workflow model proposed
 216 19:36 < xorAxAx> at least not at second or first sight
 217 19:36 < xorAxAx> we will continue with a french and german wiki
 218 19:37 < xorAxAx> we will need people working in special groups
 219 19:37 < xorAxAx> and i think we need more contact to the wiki.debian.org admin
 220 19:37 < Werner> I also had a question: is there a way of saying that the master-version for a page is on the .org-wiki, so everyone knows that the content should be updated on the .org-wiki first, then translated in the other wikis?
 221 19:37 < ThierryForb> some more: the first thing we need is to have a structure which could be more or less the same in all wikis, a team should work on that too
 222 19:37 < xorAxAx> Werner: this is like forbidding edits on the slave-page, right?
 223 19:38 < white> xorAxAx: this is for having everything up to date and at first the most important wiki, the master one ;)
 224 19:38 < Werner> well .. fixing the translation should of course be allowed, but not the content :)
 225 19:38 < xorAxAx> ThierryForb: yeah, those wiki teams should settle on that
 226 19:38 < ThierryForb> without that translation will be very difficult
 227 19:38 < jemtland> ThierryForb: Yes, I added a topic on the agenda about the substructure of the wiki(s)...
 228 19:39 < xorAxAx> note that the workflow doesnt enforce a master wiki
 229 19:39 < xorAxAx> and, furthermore - an english master wiki would not have much content currently
 230 19:39 < white> maybe we should talk again about the workflow
 231 19:40 < xorAxAx> as we said, the english wiki doesnt have many pages that would have this "international" tag set
 232 19:40 < k4x> white: we agree that for developer stuff the debian.org is the master, but only for that
 233 19:40 < Werner> no, but if we not have something that defines that the master-version of a specific document is in _that_ wiki, the content could be updated on more than one of the wiki's and we have a mess to clean up :)
 234 19:41 < xorAxAx> Werner: you will just have content that needs to be translated into different languages
 235 19:41 < ThierryForb> k4x I agree too, there things on the french wiki which doesn't exist at time on other place
 236 19:41 < k4x> Werner: in the german wiki we have about 2500 pages, and it is not needed tp translate them all in all other languages
 237 19:41 < xorAxAx> you can track which things go onto a french page, translate them to english, track the english page and translate them to spanish
 238 19:42 < jever> All wikis have to able to get important content to wiki.debian.org
 239 19:42 < xorAxAx> there is a special wiki-important-commit list for that
 240 19:42 < white> why not bringing everything which is important into the master wiki and then starting to maintain it from there and of course translating it?
 241 19:42 < xorAxAx> white: that slows down certain kind of information flows, as ThierryForb said
 242 19:42 < k4x> white: just start to do it ;-)
 243 19:43 < knuty> xorAxAx: The work flow seems to be ok. It's nice to follow this plan. 
 244 19:43 < jever> k4x. Ack
 245 19:43 < k4x> white: we need wikiteams and we need structure
 246 19:44 < xorAxAx> ok, the next step is to build such wiki teams. they will collaborate on www-int and the wiki.debian.org about the structure
 247 19:44 < k4x> and we should use some mailing existing mailinglists
 248 19:44 < xorAxAx> we dont have to have a perfect picture of the structure
 249 19:44 < ThierryForb> seems good
 250 19:44 < knuty> k4x: But you could higlight some nice pages that should be translated from the 2500 ones. e.g I've used the german Skolelinux-pages for promotinal purposes to the Pakistani gang.
 251 19:45 < k4x> knuty: yes. thats what i want, because i know there are nice pages from you too ;-)
 252 19:45 < xorAxAx> ok, i will send a reminder about subscribing www-int to the debian-edu list soon.
 253 19:46 < k4x> the wikiteam could decide what kind of cathegory we will use to highlith pages to be international relevant
 254 19:46 < jemtland> k4x: so you mean that each different team should decide their own structure ?
 255 19:46 < xorAxAx> so we have deferred the question about the structure to these wiki-working groups
 256 19:46 < k4x> i would like to have the same cathegorys in all wikis
 257 19:46 < xorAxAx> i am seeing another topic on the agenda
 258 19:46 < ThierryForb> that could be very usefull for a country who wants to start a wiki 
 259 19:47 < ThierryForb> as spain at time 
 260 19:47 < xorAxAx> ok, short intermission
 261 19:47 < k4x> jemtland: no, we should have some common structure and some other space
 262 19:47 < xorAxAx> spain is currently having a small domain connectivity problem (it is not paid yet) and might go live after easter
 263 19:47 < jemtland> ok, how many teams are we talking about here ?
 264 19:47 < xorAxAx> jemtland: one per wiki, all collaborating together first
 265 19:48 < jemtland> one fore each language, and one international, that has more "power" than the rest ?
 266 19:48 < xorAxAx> i.e. first they should subscribe to the www-int list, we can split them from there on if necessary
 267 19:48 < knuty> xorAxAx: Smart plan.
 268 19:48 < k4x> jemtland: we should have one team with all languages represent
 269 19:48 < xorAxAx> i dont think that we need special power currently
 270 19:48 < jemtland> or should all the member of all the different language wikiteams be a member of the international wikiteam ?
 271 19:48 < knuty> xorAxAx: I wan't to participate in a system-admin documentation team :-)
 272 19:49 < xorAxAx> i hope that decision processes end in fruitful discussion and not political tactics :)
 273 19:49 < k4x> jemtland: only if they like to 
 274 19:49 < xorAxAx> jemtland: thats a good and usable definition, at first
 275 19:49 < Werner> do we have to have strict team-members, or is it enough that we define what mailinglists the different teams are using for communication?
 276 19:50 < xorAxAx> Werner: a semi-persistent list of users (wiki page) should be enough
 277 19:50 < xorAxAx> we need some kind of commitment
 278 19:50 < Werner> xorAxAx: good
 279 19:50 < xorAxAx> ok, now a last question. i sketched the usage of www-int and that there will be a special commmit list for internationally-important wiki pages
 280 19:50 < xorAxAx> but there is still the global commit list
 281 19:50 < k4x> Werner: wikiteam member could have some special rights to clear up structure, move pages and so on
 282 19:51 < xorAxAx> frode asked me if german commit mails on it are good
 283 19:51 < xorAxAx> just as a short poll - what do you think - do commit mails from the german/french wikis on commits@skolel... harm?
 284 19:51 < Werner> k4x: depends on what you define as team member .. you think that team member == wiki admin :)
 285 19:51 < Werner> but that doesn't matter so much to me :)
 286 19:51 < white> k4x: if we have a commitment ML for wiki stuff do we need people with special rights?
 287 19:52 < xorAxAx> i started to send german commit mails on sunday evening ...
 288 19:52 < xorAxAx> and promised to turn it off if the group doesnt like it
 289 19:52 < xorAxAx> no opinions? :)
 290 19:52 < ThierryForb> french wiki is not sending mails on commit at time 
 291 19:53 < white> maybe we should divide the commit lists
 292 19:53 < white> into developer commits and other commits or so
 293 19:53 < jemtland> my main consern was to open for mails, I myself would put a filter on to remove.... Then again, I'm all fore the thought of getting things centrilyzed...
 294 19:53 < white> not sure
 295 19:53 < k4x> Weri would like to have them all in the commit lsit
 296 19:53 < xorAxAx> ThierryForb: yep
 297 19:53 < white> it should be possible to look at the changes, for instance for a developer to look at all devel changes
 298 19:54 < white> and i am not sure it there might be too much mails for that
 299 19:54 < Werner> white: and that is easier to do in a mailinglist-archive if we have one commit-list for each wiki..
 300 19:54 < xorAxAx> so if you think about the international wikis as user-docs-sites, user-doc shouldnt go to a commit list?
 301 19:54 < white> maybe a commits-www would help
 302 19:54 < knuty> k4x: It has been som questions asked about the amount of bug-messages on the developer list. I filter this myself. 
 303 19:54 < k4x> i think we should see what happens in one list
 304 19:54 < white> Werner: i love the "patch-control" which is done by some of the developers
 305 19:54 < white> Werner: and i don't wanna lose it
 306 19:55 < knuty> k4x: After what I can se the wiki commit traffic is gonna be probably more than the standard developer and translations commits.
 307 19:55 < xorAxAx> knuty: me too :)
 308 19:55 < Werner> white: do you have an URL to where that is explained?
 309 19:55 < white> k4x: why not having seperate commits lists?
 310 19:55 < Werner> alioth and skolelinux.no can host ML for us ..
 311 19:56 < ThierryForb> commits lists have to be seen as a tool to colaborate
 312 19:56 < Werner> I guess jemtland will be happy to go through more ML's :)
 313 19:56 < white> Werner: i just mean the review process which is done by some developers and which is actually very good to find bogus commits from developers :)
 314 19:56 < k4x> white: i would see like to in one list what is internationale going on
 315 19:56 < ThierryForb> how can we do that if we have seperate ones 
 316 19:56 < Werner> white: you're thinking of devel-changes?
 317 19:56 < white> Werner: jip
 318 19:56 < Werner> right.
 319 19:56 < white> k4x: both lists would mean "contribution to the project not only the devel list"
 320 19:57 < white> Werner: i want to encourage every developer to look at every patch :)
 321 19:57 < white> Werner: then we produce good quality
 322 19:57 < k4x> white: you have the tools to take out what is you interess?
 323 19:57 < white> and this can also be done for the wiki-changes list
 324 19:57 < Werner> white: we can discuss that later .. it has nothing to do with the wiki-things, or?
 325 19:57 < Werner> we have three minutes left..
 326 19:57 < white> Werner: sure we can
 327 19:58 < xorAxAx> i am not sure if a "those people receive highest merits because of their quality makefile" and a "users try to improve the docs" list are the best differentiation
 328 19:58 < white> Werner: but we should consider a devel-changes list with the etch-start :)
 329 19:58 < white> xorAxAx: i am not talking about that
 330 19:58 < Werner> white: we can use debian's .. as we also should upload everything to debian :)
 331 19:58 < xorAxAx> white: yeah
 332 19:58 < white> xorAxAx: i am *not* talking about honouring stuff
 333 19:59 < white> Werner: we mean something different
 334 19:59 < Werner> ThierryForb: you mean that all teams want to see which pages in the other teams wiki's that changes?
 335 19:59 < Werner> white: ok .. but later.
 336 19:59 < white> Werner: ack
 337 20:00 < ThierryForb> werner yes that's the highest interrest for such a tool 
 338 20:00 < k4x> ThierryForb: ACK
 339 20:00 < jever> ThierryForb: I agree
 340 20:01 < Werner> ThierryForb: I see your point, but I'm not sure I will even understand what a spanish page-name means .. and not if it's important to me..
 341 20:02 < k4x> Werner: there will be sombody to translate it, if it is international relevant
 342 20:02 < Werner> should we continue for 10 more minutes trying to finish the last discussion?
 343 20:02 < jever> Werner: But you are in a team and the team can see because it is an international team
 344 20:02 < k4x> yse please
 345 20:02 < ThierryForb> Werner, i agree but you will probably understand the mean point, and with this you will get the information, otherwise probably not
 346 20:02 < jemtland> ThierryForb: wount this result in way to mutch information to the members of these lists ?
 347 20:02 < xorAxAx> Werner: yes!
 348 20:02 < Werner> k4x: and does that somebody "belong" to the spanish team (where the page was updated) or in the norwegian team?
 349 20:03 < k4x> Werner: i understand spanish too :-)
 350 20:03 < Werner> if the somebody that translates it into the wiki.debian.org, the norwegian team should follow that commit-list ..
 351 20:03 < Werner> k4x: yes .. but could not you also subscribe to the spanish commitlist?
 352 20:04 < k4x> Werner: i like to have one list only to search and find, only one
 353 20:04 < Werner> if we have one commit-list for each language, the people that understands a language could subscribe that languages commit-list ..?
 354 20:04 < Werner> k4x: but that _one_ list will, IMHO, be too high-traffic for me to follow..
 355 20:05 < k4x> Werner: let us strat with only one and see
 356 20:05 < xorAxAx> a short question - is there non-english content on commits@?
 357 20:05 < k4x> s/strat/start/
 358 20:05 < xorAxAx> (besides the german wiki changes)
 359 20:05 < white> k4x: and then i can't follow the list because of high traffic :(
 360 20:05 < Werner> xorAxAx: some norwegian svn-commits..
 361 20:05 < knuty> ThierryForb / k4x: Is the main idea that there is always a Spanish speaking person in the different countires that are able to get the relevance of a wiki-page, that could translate it to Norwegian, English, German or Greece?
 362 20:05 < xorAxAx> Werner: they dont belong there ;-)
 363 20:05 < xorAxAx> if we have this language issue
 364 20:06 < Werner> xorAxAx: I know .. but that has to do with historical reasons.. and should not be a problem to change.. :)
 365 20:06 < k4x> xorAxAx: and also translation e.g. user requirement specification you find there in german
 366 20:06 < xorAxAx> yeah, svn-hooks should be pretty flexible when it comes to this
 367 20:06 < white> xorAxAx: you should know who is posting there in non-english and you should know the history ;)
 368 20:06 < xorAxAx> white: people and groups change ;-)
 369 20:06 < knuty> k4x: Smart
 370 20:07 < xorAxAx> ok, who would subscript commits-www@?
 371 20:07 < xorAxAx> s/pt/pe/
 372 20:07 < xorAxAx> if it was there
 373 20:08 < xorAxAx> i mean, you would still have some mails that are german and not english there
 374 20:08 < knuty> xorAxAx: I would
 375 20:08 < xorAxAx> (and french ones as well)
 376 20:08 < jemtland> I would, but make a filter to remove everyting I did'nt understand....
 377 20:08 < Werner> xorAxAx: I will also subscribe, but not sure if I will actually read a lot of it :)
 378 20:08 < white> xorAxAx: me too :)
 379 20:08 < xorAxAx> if language is the main concern (and traffic), then we really need to separate the sources by language
 380 20:09 < Werner> if many of us want to start with one commit-list and see how it goes, it's fine by me ..
 381 20:09 < white> i still have objections
 382 20:09 < k4x> xorAxAx: lets try and see and decide agaib in 3 or 6 month
 383 20:09 < white> and I don't see a problem with the second list
 384 20:09 < Werner> but should we make a new commit-list for www-stuff, or use the existing commits@skolelinux.org?
 385 20:09 < xorAxAx> k4x: thats nearly a century in internet terms ;-)
 386 20:09 < white> Werner: new one
 387 20:10 < white> Werner: just to make sure that we have all developing commits to one list and maybe only them
 388 20:10 < white> Werner: to keep the patch-review feature
 389 20:10 < xorAxAx> so where would go the wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu traffic?
 390 20:10 < xorAxAx> commits@ or commits-www@?
 391 20:10 -!- t9k062 [n=ircont9k@cpe-066-057-212-144.sc.res.rr.com] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
 392 20:10 < k4x> Werner: we should use www-int to discuss www and wiki stuff
 393 20:10 < Werner> both?
 394 20:11 < Werner> k4x: yes ..
 395 20:11 < knuty> The way we have separated list before is to look at the traffic, or we have seen that it has been difficoult for some users to use English as a work language, and they wan't to use their native language. As we do in the different users-lists.
 396 20:11 < xorAxAx> maybe language-based separation is better
 397 20:11 < white> both or to commits-www
 398 20:11 < Werner> k4x: but we should probably not use it as commit-list too?
 399 20:11 < xorAxAx> i am pretty sure that the french guys have a svn or similar system, right, ThierryForb?
 400 20:11 < Werner> we should finish the meeting now..
 401 20:12 < knuty> Werner: ;-)
 402 20:12 < white> Werner: who will create the new list? :)
 403 20:12 < Werner> jemtland .. :)
 404 20:12 < white> hehe
 405 20:12 < ThierryForb> xorAxAx, we use now the international svn
 406 20:12 < xorAxAx> Werner: no, the workflow model suggests two lists, both unrelated to the global commit list
 407 20:12 < jemtland> I must run soon, but before I run off :
 408 20:12 < xorAxAx> ThierryForb: ah
 409 20:12 < white> jemtland: so commits-www@skolelinux.org will be born
 410 20:12 < jemtland> The meeting page should be renamed to fit the "unofficial" structure of the int. wiki. 
 411 20:12 < knuty> xorAxAx: Should we prospone the commit-list decition to the next meeting?
 412 20:12 < xorAxAx> Werner: one of them is an important-commit-list, though
 413 20:12 < jemtland> I propose to renamed it to DebianEdu/Meeting/20060410-WebInt, and have the protocol and logs below it. Any objections?
 414 20:12 < xorAxAx> knuty: yeah
 415 20:12 < xorAxAx> jemtland: no problem
 416 20:13 < xorAxAx> i would like dashes there, generally, though :)
 417 20:13 < jemtland> As a side note. The MeetingAdminTool shouls also be renamed to the same structure.
 418 20:13 < xorAxAx> ok, so people will have to read man mutt/procmail till the next meeting :)
 419 20:13 < xorAxAx> nevertheless, it was a nice meeting
 420 20:14 < ThierryForb> we still need volunteers to propose a structure for the wikis, to help to find informations in the pages 
 421 20:14 < Werner> xorAxAx: can you summarize the things we haven't agreed on and continue the discussion on www-int@ ?
 422 20:14 < white> jemtland: at first i should fix the date then i can rename it ;)
 423 20:14 < k4x> xorAxAx: ACK
 424 20:14 < xorAxAx> Werner: yeah
 425 20:14 < Werner> great ..
 426 20:14 < xorAxAx> Werner: i think the commits-issue should go to debian-edu, though
 427 20:14 < Werner> xorAxAx: your choise .. but you should officially stop the meeting now :)
 428 20:15 < Werner> so jemtland can provide the log :)
 429 20:15 < xorAxAx> STOP :)