1 21:03 < pere> everyone attending, please do /me = full name, like this
   2 21:03 < pere> pere = Petter Reinholdtsen
   3 21:03 < Werner> Werner = Morten Werner Olsen
   4 21:03 < white> white = Steffen Joeris
   5 21:03 < finnarne> finnarne = Finn-Arne Johansen
   6 21:03 < xorAxAx> xorAxAx = Alexander Schremmer
   7 21:03 < pwinnertz> pwinnertz = Patrick Winnertz
   8 21:03 < sepski> sepski = Ronny Aasen
   9 21:04 < pere> so, the first item on the agenda is the security team
  10 21:04 < [-oskar-]> [-oskar-] = Xavier Oswald
  11 21:04 < pere> we probably do not have very little time, but lets be efficient.
  12 21:04 < pere> Werner finnarne, you put it on the agenda.  what do you want to discuss?
  13 21:04 < jemtland> jemtland = Frode Jemtland
  14 21:05 < finnarne> Well, the Security team was originally 4 people
  15 21:05 < ThierryForb> ThierryForb = Thierry Stauder
  16 21:05 < finnarne> only 2 is active
  17 21:05 < zobel> zobel == Martin Zobel-Helas
  18 21:05 < knuty> knuty == Knut Yrvin
  19 21:06 < finnarne> We've issued a security advisory for each debian advisory which is relevant for us.
  20 21:06 < finnarne> That is to much work, and we ended up with several issues in 1 advisory
  21 21:07 < finnarne> We think we should start only doing those that are "ours"
  22 21:07 < finnarne> that is, were we will have newer versions than the ones in debian
  23 21:08 < Werner> if we can stop resending desa's for the dsa's published by Debian, we don't need more active people .. if we shall continue with sending desa's we will need more active people
  24 21:08 < xorAxAx> finnarne: so how can the skolelinux users get the users the advisories that affect them because they are using packages that are in sarge?
  25 21:08 < Werner> xorAxAx: subscribe debian-security-announce ..
  26 21:09 < pere> finnarne: so you want to ask all the schools using skolelinux to read all the announcements on debian-security-announce, and filter out those that are on their system?
  27 21:09 < xorAxAx> Werner: i.e. they have to filter
  28 21:09 < finnarne> pere: yes, since we dont have enough manpower
  29 21:09  * xorAxAx wonders why that desd forwarding cannot be automated
  30 21:10 < xorAxAx> (and filterig)
  31 21:10 < Werner> xorAxAx: we can probably do a more efficient job there, yes ..
  32 21:10 < pere> I suspect it is not going to give our users much confidence.  I hope we can find more manpower or perhaps make the job easier.
  33 21:10 < Werner> but that will also need manpower
  34 21:10 < white> Werner finnarne: total count 3
  35 21:10 < finnarne> well, how many schools have only the packages that are on the CD ?
  36 21:10 < pwinnertz> not much i think
  37 21:10 < pwinnertz> this are the basic packages
  38 21:10 < pere> is it possible to leach on the testing security teams systems, <URL:http://secure-testing-master.debian.net/>?
  39 21:11 < white> discussing it with testing-sec-team would be a good idea i guess
  40 21:11 < pere> are there anyone willing to help the security team in debian-edu?
  41 21:11 < white> pere: i added myself after talking to werner
  42 21:11 < Werner> afaik white has volunteered..
  43 21:12 < sepski> since most use additional software from debian it's not to much to ask to have them read debian advisories. the IT responsible on the school should be able to filter that easily. if he can't he woudnt know what to do with the advisories in the first place.
  44 21:12 < pere> is it ok to ask the schools to read all the debian security advicories, and only send our special ones ourself?
  45 21:12 < pere> what about just subscribing "our" security announce list to the debian list, and pass on all dsa as well as adding our own?
  46 21:12 < white> well we should consider adding proposed updates also for etch
  47 21:13  * xorAxAx wonders why debian hasnt a security db like freebsd has - it can show you all insecure packages you have currently installed :)
  48 21:13 < pere> xorAxAx: the testing security team have such database.
  49 21:13 < xorAxAx> pere: oh, nice
  50 21:13 < white> zobel: you are a member of testing security do you think we can arrange a better cooperation?
  51 21:14 < zobel> should be possible
  52 21:14 < zobel> what we can do is also putting our Packages.gz into their security tracker
  53 21:14 < white> zobel: good then plz also keep in mind and we should talk about it directly after we have the first etch daily build
  54 21:14 < zobel> yes
  55 21:14 < white> then we can start a close cooperation with debian-testing i guess
  56 21:14 < Werner> but can we use some of the testing-security-infrastructure to filter out which desa's to resend?
  57 21:14 < white> that was my idea
  58 21:15 < zobel> http://idssi.enyo.de/tracker/ <--- testing security issue tracker
  59 21:15 < finnarne> zobel: white: lets focus on sarge for now
  60 21:15 < pere> any more volunteers?  I do not believe this meeting is the correct way to kick people out of the team.  I suggest the security team figure that one out on their own, and get back here if there is a problem.
  61 21:15 < Werner> and do our users want to have the dsa's resent?
  62 21:15 < finnarne> and which packages should we filter against ?
  63 21:15 < pere> Werner: perhaps we should ask our users?  what abou tusing the university survey engine to ask them?
  64 21:15 < zobel> finnarne: the testing security tracker also lists stable packages (as long as they apear in the CVE-list)
  65 21:16 < pere> finnarne: all the packages on the CD is the filter we should use.
  66 21:16 < Werner> pere: it is probably a good idea to ask the users what they want?
  67 21:16 < white> zobel: i think it is easier to use testing-sec infrastructure than stable-sec
  68 21:16 < finnarne> pere: what about those who add additional packages ...
  69 21:16 < zobel> pere: we could also recomment famke to our users.
  70 21:16 < white> finnarne: then i guess the sec team should also decide about them
  71 21:16 -!- anne_ [n=anne@lns-bzn-36-82-251-23-158.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #debian-edu
  72 21:16 < finnarne> eg, should we use popcon + the CD list ?
  73 21:16 < pere> finnarne: they got to know what they are doing, and need to subscribe to the debian list.  besides, if we start using the testing security database, we can document how to use it against the list of installed packages.
  74 21:17 < sepski> Werner, those that read debian-security anyway won't have them resent obviously. i think it would be more sane to link to debian- security from our list
  75 21:17 -!- anne_ is now known as ThierryForb_
  76 21:17 < pere> ok, no more volunteers and some work to do after the meeting.  lets move on.
  77 21:18 < pere> next on the agenda is "development focus, improve sarge or fix etch?"
  78 21:18  * zobel cosinders repackaging famke for debian-edu
  79 21:18 < white> i prefer to only fix critical bugs and add sec updates
  80 21:18 < white> for sarge
  81 21:18 < white> and focus on etch
  82 21:18 < sepski> since you say improve sarge. does that mean debian-edu dont follow debian's only security fixes in stable policy ?
  83 21:18 < pere> I suspect some of us should focus on etch, and others should make the framework to improve the sarge version.
  84 21:19 < finnarne> focus on getting etch installable, then start adding new things to etch-test (or whatever)
  85 21:19 < finnarne> and leave sarge as it is
  86 21:19 < Werner> pere: which improvements to sarge do you think of?
  87 21:19 < pere> sepski: it is not given that we follow that policy, no.  it depend on the available man-power and how long time it is between the releases. :)
  88 21:19 -!- vagrantc [n=vagrant@c-24-21-141-200.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #debian-edu
  89 21:19 < pere> Werner: Upgrading ltsp is on my list, and possibly upgrade the kernel.
  90 21:20 < white> finnarne: ack
  91 21:20 < sepski> the singular thing i'd like in sarge, and that i have gotten user feedback on  would be pere's ltsp-server packages. since ltsp 0.71 is very slow compared to 0.82-2
  92 21:20 < Werner> pere: that is for sarge?
  93 21:20  * pere learned today that kernel 2.6.10 and above support online resize of ext3.  we probably want to get that into the sarge version if possible.
  94 21:20 < knuty> pere: Ok, so to improve Skolelinux 2.0 could be to add backports and such
  95 21:20 < white> pere: i fear that it steals too much time to improve sarge and then we will have longer release circles
  96 21:20 < pere> knuty: it depends on the available man-power. :)
  97 21:21 < white> more backports would also mean more work for sec team :(
  98 21:21 < finnarne> if we shall kee adding backports of stuff, we need more manpower on the security team
  99 21:21 < pere> I believe top priority should be to get all the stuff we want into etch.
 100 21:21 < finnarne> ack
 101 21:21 < pere> next, is to make the framework we need to upgrade the sarge version.
 102 21:21 < white> ack
 103 21:21 < pwinnertz> and sarge will be out of date when we can have improved it (and backports are not a good solution)
 104 21:21 < pere> and then if we have time left, improve sarge.
 105 21:21 < white> pere: maybe consider 2 debian-edu sarge point releases
 106 21:21 < pere> and I believe these tasks need to be done in parallell, with time allocated to them according to their priority
 107 21:22 < finnarne> the goal should be to release a etch-based debian-edu when etch is released as stable debian
 108 21:22 < sepski> i dont think we should add backports or similar. that's left as an excesise to the user. but packages that identify skolelinux such as ltsp-server might be upgraded.
 109 21:22 < ThierryForb_> i'm agree with you pere
 110 21:22 < pere> if we look at <URL:http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-edu@lists.debian.org>, we notice a few packages currently missing from etch.  these are top priority.
 111 21:22 < finnarne> sepski: true, since we need to support them anyway
 112 21:22 < ThierryForb_> it's a question of priority
 113 21:22 < sepski> pere, agreed that etch should have higer priority
 114 21:22 < white> finnarne: is also my dream and i wanna try to let it become true (releasing with debian)
 115 21:23 < finnarne> white: we still need to support the old version to the end of the semester ...
 116 21:23 < pere> to make the etch deadline, we need to have most stuff in debian this summer.  the first packages freezes then.
 117 21:24 < pere> that means the french team really need to get their asses moving to get the packages they made into debian.
 118 21:24 < white> finnarne: of course i would support it as i said with critical fixes and sec issues
 119 21:24 < pere> anyone willing to spend time on improving the sarge version, or do everyone want to focus on etch?
 120 21:24 < [-oskar-]> I think, we are ever late than debian release and ever doing backports is not the right solution, let's focus on etch and few people can maintain some stuff in sarge
 121 21:25 < pere> we will mean complains about old openoffice, missing hardware support, and probably the usual "last weeks package is missing".
 122 21:25 < pere> missing hardware support is vital, as it blocks people from using skolelinux completely.
 123 21:25 < sepski> pere, having a working etch version should help on some of that tho woudnt it ?
 124 21:26 < pere> for example, I suspect the sarge version isn't working very well with sata disks.
 125 21:26 < white> pere: this would make it "bug urgency critical"
 126 21:26 < finnarne> pere: I've not come across a sata dist I could not install to
 127 21:26 < pere> sepski: absolutely, it give the user a choice, but not a good choice for those without time to spend maintainer their moving target system
 128 21:26 < sepski> pere, this is true experienced this myself in several occasions. but not any different from sarge
 129 21:26 < knuty> pere: Yes, satas is a problem
 130 21:26 < pere> finnarne: good.  I feared that 2.6.8 didn't suppor sata.
 131 21:27 < finnarne> it does ,but there are some quirks
 132 21:27 < finnarne> (at least 1 I know of)
 133 21:27 < Werner> finnarne: is that normal installation or do you have to use expert installation?
 134 21:27 < knuty> pere: even 2.6.12 could be a problem :-) I'we got some experience even with Ubuntu 5.10
 135 21:27 < finnarne> Werner: use export install
 136 21:27 < pere> I did not see anyone willing to spend much time on sarge, so I believe the conclusion is to work on etch and get it into a releasable state as soon as possible.
 137 21:28 < finnarne> knuty: I think the ubuntu issue is the same issues as we have in sarge
 138 21:28 < sepski> pere, well you can't have both a moving system and a stable system, if the user have the manpower to constantly update they should be able to run etch, but many schools on limited buged dont want to upgrade all the time, simply becouse they dont have the time to.
 139 21:28 -!- ThierryForb [n=anne@lns-bzn-35-82-250-212-48.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
 140 21:28 < pere> but we need to move the sarge building to dak, and make it possible to add security issues.  any volunteers?
 141 21:28 < white> pere: as ftpmaster and sec team i am assigned to is ;)
 142 21:28 < pere> s/issues/updates/
 143 21:29 < white> s/is/it/
 144 21:29 < finnarne> white: you're not accepted into the sec team (yet) ....
 145 21:29 < finnarne> :)
 146 21:29 < white> finnarne: :=)
 147 21:29 < pere> ok, white work on the build framework.  next topic.
 148 21:29 < Werner> first thing is to upload all packages we have now to dak, and make sure the sarge-pool is up2date .. then move ftp.skolelinux.(no,org) to a.skolelinux.no
 149 21:29 < white> finnarne Werner: i think we can bring the sarge package into dak, but we also need many people working on etch based release
 150 21:29 < pere> "archive announcement " ?
 151 21:30 < finnarne> isn't the new archive anounced yet ?
 152 21:30 < pere> white: yes, we need to get the sarge packages into dak.  and I would prefer that to happen without any changes for the packages we have source for, aka no new version and no 'sarge-test' in the changelog.
 153 21:31 < zobel> finnarne: white sent teh announcement a few hours ago...
 154 21:31 < white> pere: but we need sarge or sarge-test in the changelog
 155 21:31 < white> pere: unstable won't work with our dak
 156 21:31 < pere> white: so I have seen.  how can we avoid that?
 157 21:31 < zobel> white: we can do that
 158 21:31 < Werner> zobel: there is no way to upload into sarge or sarge-test without changing dist-tag in the changelog?
 159 21:31 < finnarne> white: why ? cant you override ?
 160 21:31 < zobel> that should be no problem
 161 21:32 < finnarne> good
 162 21:32 < finnarne> case closed ?
 163 21:32 < white> but where is the problem with sarge or sarge-test?
 164 21:32 < pere> the packages we have in our sarge repository have all kinds of dist names, like woody, sarge, UNRELEASED etc.
 165 21:32 < zobel> i need to work that out, but in general i see ne problem
 166 21:32 < pere> zobel: sounds good.
 167 21:32 < white> zobel: when will you have it
 168 21:32 < Werner> zobel: so we can fix that later?
 169 21:32 < white> zobel: please keep in mind that you are SRM
 170 21:32 < white> just want to make sure that the work is done immediately
 171 21:32 < pere> it would also be nice if I could upload the same package into unstable and debian-edu.  for example xdebconfigurator is identical.
 172 21:32 < zobel> white: can we do that at our meeting with h01ger?
 173 21:32 < zobel> or is that too late?
 174 21:33 < white> means in two weeks
 175 21:33 < white> is that ok with everybode
 176 21:33 -!- ThierryForb_ is now known as ThierryForb
 177 21:33 < pere> I have no problem with waiting two weeks for the new sarge build.  we need to verify that the new stuff work before turning off the old build anyway.
 178 21:33 < white> pere: i though you don't want to have "unstable" as a suite name to make sure there is a difference?
 179 21:34 < pere> white: I do not, for the packages specificly targeted at debian-edu.
 180 21:34 < white> hmm
 181 21:34 < pere> but for packages targeted at both, it make sense.
 182 21:34 < white> then we need a mapping i guess
 183 21:34 < pere> so debian-edu should accept etch-test and unstable, while debian only accept unstable.
 184 21:34 < zobel> pere: meaning what? having the package in unstable/debiane and in etch/debian-edu?
 185 21:34 < white> zobel: i think mapping should do that for us or?
 186 21:34 < zobel> pere: nP
 187 21:34 < zobel> white: yes
 188 21:35 < white> zobel: but we have to take care of woody for instance
 189 21:35 < white> anyway we can discuss it later
 190 21:35 < zobel> white: do you take noes or should i do?
 191 21:35 < pere> zobel: double uploads could only work for platform independent packages where we know the dependencies are in etch.
 192 21:35 < finnarne> zobel: you can always read the log :)
 193 21:35 < white> pere zobel: i see a problem in case of:
 194 21:35 < white> a package is currently in sarge but the changelog says woody
 195 21:36 < white> then it would go into woody suite in dak
 196 21:36 < white> or can we delete woody suite in dak?
 197 21:36 < zobel> white: you requested it :)
 198 21:36 < finnarne> white: nope, we cannot
 199 21:36 < white> finnarne: so we will also switch our woody archive into dak?
 200 21:36 < zobel> white: we can copy any package with katha to any suite
 201 21:36 < finnarne> we need to have woody, for security support
 202 21:36 < white> zobel: ah right :)
 203 21:37 < pere> we want to reinstall d.s.n, and all the services currently provided by d.s.n need t move away.
 204 21:37 < white> finnarne: ok then during the weekend we also need to include woody packages in dadk
 205 21:37 < white> zobel: sorry i forgot it :)
 206 21:37 < white> Werner: some work for us hehe ;)
 207 21:37 < white> pere: ok should be no problem at all :)
 208 21:38 < zobel> it would be a "nice to have" to have Werner also at the HH/dak meeting.
 209 21:38 < pere> ok, more on the archive handling?
 210 21:38 < zobel> pere: yes
 211 21:38 < zobel> we need all gpg key ids from all persons who are allowed to upload
 212 21:39 < white> Werner: can you come to germany?
 213 21:39 < zobel> if that is not done already.
 214 21:39 < Werner> white: which weekend (date) ?
 215 21:39 < white> zobel: the procedure is described and drift is informed :)
 216 21:39 < white> Werner: in two weeks :)
 217 21:39 < zobel> Werner: first weekend in april
 218 21:39 < white> Werner: i can offer you more accomodation if needed :)
 219 21:39 < pere> zobel: during estern?
 220 21:39 < zobel> white: we need to check with h01ger first.
 221 21:40 < pere> zobel: I guess we need a debian-edu keyring?
 222 21:40 < white> zobel: i mean if he gets other flights, for instance during the week
 223 21:40 < white> pere: we have one
 224 21:40 < zobel> pere: true
 225 21:40 < Werner> zobel, white: I'm in the mountains .. sorry :(8~
 226 21:40 < zobel> Werner: nP
 227 21:40 < pere> white: yes, but lots of people in debian-edu have no gpg key yet. :)
 228 21:40 < white> pere: but that is fixable :)
 229 21:40 < pere> more on archive handling?
 230 21:40 < zobel> Werner: you need to docu then.
 231 21:41 < zobel> no.
 232 21:41 < white> me :)
 233 21:41 < pere> ok, next topic: work on the first etch-based CD
 234 21:41 < white> should be off high priority i guess
 235 21:41 < white> s/off/of/
 236 21:41 < pere> what is needed.  the agenda only lists "installer system need a rewrite to handle base-config removal", but I guess there are more?
 237 21:41 < zobel> has anyone asked Sledge on that topic?
 238 21:42 < finnarne> should we also try to fix the bug that jonas reported, about editing conffiles ?
 239 21:42 < [-oskar-]> pere: have you meet fjp about the installer, it will nice to have a graphical installer :)
 240 21:42 < white> pere: need to touch the build scripts, a first list of packages and the build process
 241 21:42 < pere> zobel: who is sledge and what can he bring to the table?
 242 21:42 < finnarne> we also need to have a solution without webmin (or is webmin back in?)
 243 21:42 < white> finnarne: how would you do that???
 244 21:42 < finnarne> white: ask jonas
 245 21:42 < zobel> pere: sledge is the guy behind cdimage.d.o
 246 21:42 < knuty> pere: What about the French new user-admin and some groupware things?
 247 21:42 < pere> [-oskar-]: no, have not discussed the graphical installer with fjp.
 248 21:43 < sepski> [-oskar-], with the amount of user interaction in debian-edu installer i think a GUI for the install is utterly pointless :)
 249 21:43 < white> finnarne: :)
 250 21:43 < pere> knuty: they have to get them ready for debian very quickly. :)
 251 21:43 < finnarne> sepski: :)
 252 21:43 < zobel> pere: i talked to him at fodem he said, we could use cdimage.d.o infrastructure for debian-edu cd building.
 253 21:43 < pwinnertz> finnarne: webmin is on the way back :)
 254 21:43 < finnarne> pwinnertz: :(
 255 21:43 < zobel> s/fodem/FOSDEM/
 256 21:43 < pere> yes, webmin is particularly painful.  it has been removed from unstable and testing.
 257 21:43 < pwinnertz> finnarne: :)
 258 21:43 < [-oskar-]> sepski: I don't think so, the new installer will support a lots of new languages
 259 21:43 < knuty> pere: Then I'll will ask them to hurry :)
 260 21:43 < pere> pwinnertz: tell us more?
 261 21:44 < white> pwinnertz: :(
 262 21:44 < pwinnertz> pere: I package it together with 3 other guys
 263 21:44 < pere> zobel: that sounds good.  I suspect we now can get away with providing a boot image and a conf file.
 264 21:44 < sepski> [-oskar-], good point. if the current installer can't support them
 265 21:44 < pwinnertz> pere: so i hope it will be in debian in april
 266 21:44 < white> pwinnertz: will you get it into etch (means until summer without rc bugs) ?
 267 21:44 -!- C14r [n=C14r@cleon.dhcp.uni-bielefeld.de] has quit ["leaving"]
 268 21:44 < pwinnertz> white: i hope so
 269 21:45 < finnarne> could we also have netboot images, that automaticly loads debian-edu-*-udeb ?
 270 21:45 < pere> pwinnertz: good.
 271 21:45 < knuty> Should we make a web-min replacement, with just the 5-6 configuration issues we need - ltsp, network, netgroups, user-admin, ...
 272 21:45 < zobel> pere: we should talk to him, but i guess not no.
 273 21:45 < zobel> s/no$/now/
 274 21:45 < pere> finnarne: if you come up with a way to get the udeb_include stuff working on a netboot image, I am all for it. :)
 275 21:45 < finnarne> knuty: there is really only netgroups and user admin stuff
 276 21:45 < [-oskar-]> finnarne: it's easy to hack the new debian-installer and add udebs
 277 21:45 < pwinnertz> knuty: i think for the long term a own tool would be the better solution
 278 21:45 -!- mherweg [n=mherweg@i577AC293.versanet.de] has quit ["Leaving"]
 279 21:46 < finnarne> [-oskar-]: on the initrd.img ?
 280 21:46 < pere> can everyone have a look at <URL:http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-edu@lists.debian.org>, and make sure all the packages we are interested in are listed there?
 281 21:46 < zobel> pere: so we could have some kind of post-dinstall script triggering automatic cd creation.
 282 21:46 < pere> it will make it easier to see what packages need work to get into etch.
 283 21:46 < finnarne> [-oskar-]: I know it's easy to add udebs on a CD, but not for netboot install
 284 21:46 < white> zobel: a really requested feature :)
 285 21:47 < knuty> finnarne: pwinnertz: I'll probably should motivate some students helping out whith the user-admin and the netgroup-issue ... I'll restart this prosesses
 286 21:47 < Werner> if we can use cdimage.d.o, will that mean that we don't need to set up cdimage-building on our own?
 287 21:47 < pere> zobel: at the moment we trigger it using make run every 5 minutes.  that work too.
 288 21:47 < zobel> Werner: yes.
 289 21:47 < [-oskar-]> finnarne: if your udeb is in a repository so you can download it during the install
 290 21:47 < pere> zobel: is cdimage going to allow building with non-free packages?
 291 21:47 < pwinnertz> knuty: sound good
 292 21:48 < finnarne> [-oskar-]: yes, but I need to select them, I cant tell the installer on the command-line to download them, can I ?
 293 21:48 < white> zobel: we have java and some other stuff as well
 294 21:48 < zobel> pere: needs to be communicated with Sledge i guess..
 295 21:48 < pere> I spoke with man-di (Michael Koch) a few days ago about the state of java applets.  he do not believe it will be ready in a year.
 296 21:48 < finnarne> knuty: We've tried using students for useradmin before, and failed :)
 297 21:48 < pere> so we will probably need to include sun java for etch too. :(
 298 21:48 < [-oskar-]> finnarne: pere, I think, it were cool to add a topic for the next debian-installer meeting if you want more infos..
 299 21:49 < zobel> pere: i will talk to Sledge about details. Is that okay for you guys?
 300 21:49 < finnarne> [-oskar-]: yes please, (/me hope it's a irc-meeting)
 301 21:49 < Werner> zobel: please do :)
 302 21:49 < [-oskar-]> finnarne: it is a list of udeb you want and after that you can add the position during the installation it will be run
 303 21:49 < knuty> finnarne: Well, people says that the user-admin tool works, but they needed local admins and teachers to change passord for forgettable pupils.
 304 21:49 < white> zobel: sure :)
 305 21:49 < pere> so, for the short term, we need to get CD building working using the debian/etch archive and our etch-test archive, and work on getting all the packages we care about into debian/unstable.
 306 21:50 < white> pere: i think we need two daily builkds
 307 21:50 < finnarne> knuty: some tool exists, but I need to work on it to get it better ...
 308 21:50 < white> an etch-test and an etch based
 309 21:50 < pere> there are probably thousand of bugs reported against the packages we care about.  please help out fixing those in debian.
 310 21:50 < white> to make sure we provide a kinda stable
 311 21:50 < finnarne> white: we need to build images as soon as there are changes
 312 21:50 < pere> white: sure, but lets focus on the etch-test one first.
 313 21:50 < knuty> finnarne: Ok :)
 314 21:50 < white> pere: ack
 315 21:51 < white> finnarne: of course therefore we have etch-test and if the fix is ok the package is moved
 316 21:51 < white> s/moved/copied/
 317 21:51 < pere> I am going to focus on getting online resizing working out of the box for etch.  it require changes to autopartkit and partman.
 318 21:51 < pere> (and e2fsprogs/ext2resize as well)
 319 21:51 < finnarne> white: we need instant building for etch(!-test)
 320 21:52 < pere> finnarne: well, we need instante building for the dist-test images, and want them for dist images as well.
 321 21:52 < white> finnarne: we need a devel version and we need a version which we can provide for users
 322 21:52 < pere> finnarne: after all, testing need to happen imediately, while moving it to production can take a bit longer.
 323 21:52 < white> ack
 324 21:53 < finnarne> pere: when we have a working etch build, we should give out a PreRelease
 325 21:53 < finnarne> maybe once a month
 326 21:53 < pere> what should the release process be?  We upload into etch-test and unstable, test and get it working, and then push to our etch reposotiry and build a new CD, test that and copy it to the release directory?
 327 21:53 < white> jip
 328 21:53 < pere> is that too many steps?
 329 21:53 < white> so we make sure that we have a version for users
 330 21:53 < finnarne> I figure etch-test is for new features
 331 21:54 < white> add a new feature to etch-test
 332 21:54 < white> test the cd
 333 21:54 < white> and if it works request copy to etch
 334 21:54 < white> and that's it
 335 21:54 < white> and if users wanna use etch they can do that and we have a version which can be tested by us :)
 336 21:54 < pere> but I can not stress this enough.  we need to upload into debian/unstable, to get the packages into debian proper.
 337 21:55 < white> pere: our first goal should always be to bring all stuff into debian
 338 21:55 < Werner> I believe we should focus more on getting things in to debian and integrate more with Debian on the technical parts than we have done until now ..
 339 21:55 < white> dak is no new archive where we can upload -0skolelinux1 packages which are not in debian!!!!!!!!
 340 21:56 < white> and this is also written down in archive policy i guess
 341 21:56 < Werner> debian-installer, integrating our cdbuilding with Debian's and maybe testing-security- vs. debian-edu/skolelinux security are examples
 342 21:56 -!- C14r [n=C14r@cleon.dhcp.uni-bielefeld.de] has joined #debian-edu
 343 21:57 < pere> so, what should the people unable to upload directly into debian/unstable do?
 344 21:57 < white> search for a sponsor
 345 21:57 < zobel> pere: send RFS to debian-edu@ ?
 346 21:57 < white> only if the package is in NEW for instance or is non-free but ok for us it can go to our archive
 347 21:57 < pere> yes, but in the mean time? do we want to slow down development while finnarne searches for a sponsor?
 348 21:58 < white> pere: no these are special cases
 349 21:58 < zobel> if not even to debian-mentors@.
 350 21:58 < white> with the intention to get it into debian
 351 21:58 < white> there is a difference i guess
 352 21:58 < white> i try to write it down in the archive policy and i hoped that it is clear
 353 21:58 < white> maybe i failed :(
 354 21:58 < pere> I suspect we need to test packages in etch-testing first, and then upload to unstable when it is proven to work.
 355 21:59 < sepski> pere, isn't that a bit backwards ? :)
 356 21:59 < pere> sepski: got any better idea for how to test packages being installed from the cd?
 357 21:59 < pere> we are running out of time
 358 22:00 < white> pere: maybe continue over ML? not sure
 359 22:00 < Werner> we have a lot of topics to discuss further .. who is writing the summary?
 360 22:00 < pere> it seem to me that we need to continue discussing how to test packages with the new archive and still push packages into debian/unstable.  but not today.
 361 22:00 < pere> two topics left.  service moving and next meeting date.
 362 22:00 < white> but i don't think that it will become a problem in reality
 363 22:01 < pere> what is there to say about moving the services?
 364 22:01 < white> is the list correct?
 365 22:01 < white> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Infrastructure
 366 22:01 < sepski> pere, no, i ust didnt see the reason why you coudnt upload to unstable at the same time as one did etch-test. that is unless one is activly troubleshooting a package tho
 367 22:01  * pere have not looked at it for a while.
 368 22:01 < white> and maybe delete the old ones there if the service is moved
 369 22:02 < pere> sepski: only debian developers can upload into unstable.  so all those working on debian-edu without being DDs can't upload directly.
 370 22:02 < white> pere: i don't think that we are talking about tons of packages
 371 22:02 < pere> white: sounds good.  I am pleased to report that backup has been enabled on a.s.n, so it is safe to put it into production. :)
 372 22:02 < white> pere: so i don't think that it will become a problem in the future
 373 22:03 < finnarne> well, I guess I should leave Debian-edu alone, and restart the NM-process for myself.
 374 22:03 < zobel> pere: on backup: do we really want to backup ftp/pool/* ?
 375 22:03 < white> finnarne: sorry but i don't want to see you going away!
 376 22:03 < pere> zobel: probably not.  we can fine-tune it.
 377 22:03 < pere> zobel: please reply to my email abou tthat.
 378 22:03 < zobel> pere: will do. already on my todo list
 379 22:03 < pere> who is going to work on the service move?  I am.  who else?
 380 22:04 < Werner> I am going to work on it ..
 381 22:04 < white> pere: well which services are left?
 382 22:04 < white> as far as i know bugzilla
 383 22:04 < pere> quite a lot, I suspect.
 384 22:04 < white> -v :)
 385 22:04 < pere> three people?
 386 22:04 < zobel> pere: there is also a cold-standby copy off dak on on of my machines, ATM.
 387 22:04 < pere> root access isn't needed for some of it, I believe.
 388 22:05 < pere> I would love to have some help in updating the LDAP user database, and move it to a.s.n.
 389 22:05 < white> pere: is there some time to mention them?
 390 22:05 < zobel> pere: what is needed to ldap?
 391 22:05 < white> finnarne: i am waiting for a statement: "No white I won't leave you" !
 392 22:05 < white> where you means debian-edu :)
 393 22:05 < pere> white: nope, no time to go into details with the move.  I just want to have all those interested in working on it to volunteer.
 394 22:06 < finnarne> pere: I could maybe help with the ldap move ...
 395 22:06 < pere> zobel: basicly loading openldap with user info from /etc/passswd and friends.
 396 22:06 < pere> finnarne: great.
 397 22:06 < Werner> do updates from /etc/passwd,shadow daily?
 398 22:06 < zobel> about how many thousand accounts?
 399 22:06 < pere> zobel: a few hundres, I guess. :)
 400 22:06 < pere> talk to me if you want to help with the ldap update.
 401 22:07 < pere> ok, next meeting.  when?
 402 22:07 < white> are still all accounts in use?
 403 22:07 < zobel> anyone considered to use userdir ldap as debian does?
 404 22:07 < pere> 2 weeks or 4 weeks?
 405 22:07 < finnarne> I think we agreed on startign 4 weeks intervals when 2.0 was released
 406 22:07 < pere> fine with me.  will it collide with the narvik meeting?
 407 22:07 < Werner> zobel: is that document?
 408 22:07 < white> finnarne: sounds good but then we need a good communication in between
 409 22:08 < zobel> i will be on VAC from 14th to 23rd of April. means completly offline. no PC, no internet, no GSM.
 410 22:08 < pere> is the narvik meeting verified?
 411 22:08 < Werner> documented..
 412 22:08 < white> Werner: i am still searching for a cheap flight maybe we can discuss it after the meeting or tomorrow a bit
 413 22:09 < finnarne> zobel: if you help with the ldap, I'll step down, (too many ..., to much mess...)
 414 22:09 < pere> 2006-04-17 is four weeks from now.  is that ok with everyone?
 415 22:09 < Werner> ok for me ..
 416 22:09 < pere> Werner: is the narvik meeting verified?
 417 22:09 < ThierryForb> ok
 418 22:09 < finnarne> is that the the 2. easterday ?
 419 22:09 < zobel> finnarne: you go first.
 420 22:09 < zobel> so i step down.
 421 22:09 < pere> during ester is probably a bad idea.
 422 22:10 < knuty> pere: The FRISK-board got a e-mail that everything was set for 21-23 of April in Narvik
 423 22:10 < finnarne> zobel: I have enough to do, and would do it as a hack ...
 424 22:10 < Werner> the narvik meeting is verified, and everyone must ask to get their travel expences refunded (as usual)
 425 22:10 < zobel> pere: 17th is the easter week, isn't it?
 426 22:10 < pere> finnarne: yes, I believe it is.
 427 22:10 < finnarne> and you are not traveling ?
 428 22:10 < Werner> we might have limited economical resources :/
 429 22:10 < pere> easter is from 7. to 17, I believe.
 430 22:10 < finnarne> ok.
 431 22:11 < pere> so, not 17th?
 432 22:11 < white> does it make sense for me to look after a flight?
 433 22:11 < white> i would need sponsoring
 434 22:11 < zobel> easter-sunday is the 16th.
 435 22:11  * pere can not garentee his online status on the 17th.
 436 22:11 < Werner> white: send an email to styret@friprogramvareiskolen.no and ask..
 437 22:11 < finnarne> zobel: the monday is national holiday here in norway
 438 22:11 < pere> 24th would be the day after narvik.  not sure if that is a good date either. :/
 439 22:11 < sepski> finnarne, so we can all be on irc all day ? :)
 440 22:12 < pere> we should not wait too long, or we will forget about it. :)
 441 22:12 < sepski> 10th then, ?
 442 22:12 < finnarne> maybe we should have one in 2 weeks, then switch to 4 weeks intervals
 443 22:12 < zobel> finnarne: i will not be able to attend on 17th as i will be completly offline for 1 week (14th-23rd)
 444 22:12 < pere> sepski: also during ester.
 445 22:12  * Werner agrees with finnarne..
 446 22:12 < white> finnarne: ack
 447 22:12 < pere> monday 3th of april?
 448 22:12 < finnarne> yes
 449 22:12 < zobel> pere: yes
 450 22:12 < sepski> better sooner then later so 2 weeks sounds sane
 451 22:13 < knuty> Narvik is paying 10.000 NOK / 1257 NOK to help out with traveling expenses
 452 22:13 < stockholm> cool
 453 22:13 < white> knuty: means in euro?
 454 22:13 < knuty> knuty 1257 Euro
 455 22:13 < zobel> pere: that is directly after the dak/ftpmaster team meeting. sounds good to me.
 456 22:13 < white> Werner: and no opportunity for you to come ;(
 457 22:13 < finnarne> then we _really_ need to change into 4 weeks intervals (or my wife will not be pleased :)
 458 22:13 < pere> ok.  we have a meeting date, and this meeting is concluded.  thank you all for participating.  and for the late comers, please use /me = full name, like this for the log and summary.
 459 22:13 < white> Werner: i would also cook ;)
 460 22:13 < pere> pere = Petter Reinholdtsen
 461 22:14 < finnarne> finnarne = Finn-Arne Johansen
 462 22:14 < white> white = Steffen Joeris
 463 22:14 < Werner> white: where/when/what?
 464 22:14 < Werner> Werner = Morten Werner Olsen
 465 22:14 < white> Werner: in two weeks
 466 22:14 < zobel> zobel == Martin Zobel-Helas
 467 22:14 < white> Werner: you said something about montains :(
 468 22:14 < pwinnertz> pwinnertz == Patrick Winnertz
 469 22:14 < ThierryForb> ThierryForb = Thierry Stauder
 470 22:14 < knuty> knuty = Knut Yrvin
 471 22:14 < jemtland> jemtland = Frode Jemtland
 472 22:14 < pere> 58 nicks present on the channel during the meeting.
 473 22:15 < Werner> white: in two weeks, yes ..
 474 22:15 < ThierryForb> have a look on http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/DevCamp2006