1 19:00 < pere> So, lets start. Please, can everyone reading this message respond with 'I am here' so the know who is present and who is not.
2 19:00 < finnarne> I'm here
3 19:01 < pere> The agenda is available from <URL:http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEduMeeting20060119>. Feel free to update it during the meeting with information and links.
4 19:01 < pere> We should limit this meeting to 60 minutes. Because of this I will move forward on the agenda when I believe we have covered the topic at hand.
5 19:01 < pere> finnarne: so, only the two of us present. this will be a quick meeting. :)
6 19:01 < finnarne> well - not a lot of people here yet, jemtland will join us shortly i think
7 19:02 < ThierryForb> present - french team
8 19:02 < finnarne> white - you are writing a summary, dont you ?
9 19:02 < white> right
10 19:02 < pere> white promised to write a summary, and finnarne promised to make the IRC logs available after the meeting, yes.
11 19:02 < pere> First topic, what is the current status of debian-edu. We should limit this to 15 minutes, I believe.
12 19:02 < white> I am here
13 19:03 < [-oskar-]> hi
14 19:03 < pere> who wants to give us an idea of the current status?
15 19:03 < white> i think there are 16 bugs left
16 19:03 < finnarne> Current status ? I've not tested a new image latelty
17 19:03 < Werner_> I am here
18 19:03 < white> i think we agreed in calling all pre06 bugs release stopping bugs
19 19:04 < finnarne> not all?
20 19:04 -!- knuty
21 19:04 < white> hopefully not all
22 19:04 < pere> did anyone test the dailiy built CD lately?
23 19:04 < Werner_> I tested it on saturday
24 19:05 < white> so who made the last test
25 19:05 < white> Werner on saturday
26 19:05 < pere> what is working, what is not?
27 19:05 < Werner_> the installation of server+thin-client-server worked, two thin client booted simultaniously
28 19:05 < finnarne> I know there is some changes committed into svn that will break the installation of thin clients
29 19:05 < white> we should skip the barebone stuff and do it after the release
30 19:05 < finnarne> yes
31 19:05 < Werner_> white: agree
32 19:05 < white> we should also talk about the ntp configuration
33 19:06 < finnarne> I think we will have to do it the ugly way - with cfengine hacks
34 19:06 < Werner_> white: bug # ?
35 19:06 < pere> finnarne: what was commited breaking the installation?
36 19:06 < white> Werner_: 1024
37 19:07 < finnarne> jemtland: found one of my script and commited them as a replacement.
38 19:07 < pere> Werner_: did you have any problems with NFS timeouts when you tested?
39 19:07 < white> pere: shall we look at all pre06 bugs now and summarize which of them are important for the next release?
40 19:07 < pere> finnarne: are your script broken?
41 19:07 < finnarne> We could revert it, but it should be splitt (like you started)
42 19:07 < Werner_> pere: no
43 19:07 < finnarne> pere: when taken out of context and soem additional files are missing, yes
44 19:07 < pere> white: I believe we should focus on this meeting now, and go looking for info.
45 19:08 < pere> s/for info/for info later/
46 19:08 < white> ok
47 19:08 < Werner_> shall we talk about the changes that will break thin-client-setup first, NTP afterwords?
48 19:09 < white> yes please
49 19:09 < finnarne> the quick fix is to revert the checkin from jemtland.
50 19:09 < pere> so, if I get this right, the CD is working at least for main-server+ltsp-server, and there are dubioius changes in svn for the ltsp build at the moment?
51 19:10 < pere> any other status information you are aware of?
52 19:10 < white> i think we need a working solution now and we can hack on it after a release
53 19:10 < finnarne> yes, and we have broken ntp setup (calls pool.ntp.org)
54 19:10 < finnarne> it worksm but could cause some problems
55 19:10 < pere> it has done so for quite some time. how seriuos is it?
56 19:11 < finnarne> serious enough if you're on a isdn line
57 19:11 < white> Werner_: does the debian-edu package run and depend on kdepim-plugins now so that we can close this bug?
58 19:11 < finnarne> and anoying if your hw is not syncronized in the first place
59 19:11 < Werner_> white: one thing at the time..
60 19:11 < white> finnarne: but it is not breaking anything
61 19:11 < white> Werner_: sure sorry
62 19:12 < pere> we seem to be moving away from the general status issue and on to individual packages. lets to that then. which packages do we need to discuss? I've seen ntp, kdepim and ltsp mentioned. any others?
63 19:12 < finnarne> udev
64 19:12 < jemtland> I'm here
65 19:12 < finnarne> and the shared config in /usr/share/debian-edu from debian-edu-config
66 19:13 < pere> so, for problematic packages. lets do them one after another. ntp first. what is the problem and how do we fix it?
67 19:13 < finnarne> lets use cfengine(2) to point all ntp(date|-server) to ntp
68 19:13 < Werner_> the problem is afaik all hosts does ntp requests to pool.ntp.org ..
69 19:14 < finnarne> and I'm not sure if all profiles gets ntp-server installed
70 19:14 < finnarne> and on many installations ntp is blocked in some firewall
71 19:14 < pere> Werner_: right. this happened when the new maintainer ripped out the debconf preseeding support in ntp.
72 19:14 < Werner_> so shall we make sure all profiles get ntp-server installed and hack this correct (ntp.intern) with cfengine(2) then?
73 19:15 < finnarne> yes
74 19:15 < pere> only the networked profiles should install ntp, I believe.
75 19:15 < pere> not standalone.
76 19:15 -!- JeromeForb
77 19:15 < Werner_> right
78 19:15 < white> agree
79 19:15 < finnarne> pere: right
80 19:16 < Werner_> I'll paste this into bugzilla bug #1024 .. who has time to do this?
81 19:16 < pere> there should be some old cfengine code in svn to do this. We used to edit the config using cfengine, and then we got the maintainer of ntp to support preseeding, and then the maintainer changed and the new one ripped out preseeding support.
82 19:17 < pere> any volnuteer to fix and test this?
83 19:18 < pere> right, no one. lets move on to udev. what is the problem and how do we fix it?
84 19:18 < white> and which bug number?
85 19:18 < finnarne> #974
86 19:18 -!- DbD
87 19:18 < finnarne> some cfengine again
88 19:19 < pere> what is the problem?
89 19:19 < finnarne> I think I've documented what needs to be done on the bug
90 19:19 < finnarne> sound is not working
91 19:19 < finnarne> cdrom is only read/writable by root and cdrom group
92 19:19 < finnarne> stuff lik that
93 19:20 < white> sounds like you attached a patch
94 19:20 < finnarne> anyone knows whay we need read and write permission on /dev/rtc ? (same bug)
95 19:20 < finnarne> white: no - not a patch - just a memo on what to do.
96 19:20 < pere> why is this an udev problem?
97 19:21 < finnarne> because we fixed this with devfsd, and now we uses udev instead
98 19:21 < finnarne> for 2.6-kernel
99 19:21 < white> can't we add the users into the audio group? or am i missing something?
100 19:21 < finnarne> and we want 2.6 kernel for usb devices ++
101 19:21 < pere> how did we fix access problems using devfsd?
102 19:21 < finnarne> cfengine I think
103 19:21 < finnarne> white: I have 600 user and growing- do you want them added to audio and cdrom group ?
104 19:22 < white> if they need sound access ... yes
105 19:22 < finnarne> by hand for each user ....
106 19:22 < white> no
107 19:22 < [-oskar-]> :)
108 19:22 < white> wether automatically or with a script
109 19:22 < pere> I believe redhat changes the permission/owner on the devices when the user log into the console. another solution is to add the user to a set of groups when he log in. a third is to make the devices accessable to all. not sure if the latter is a good one.
110 19:23 < pere> I saw some discussion on some debian list about race conditions in the redhat solution. not sure about the details.
111 19:23 < white> i don't agree with the last one although it is the easiest way
112 19:23 < finnarne> with devfs we allow access to everyone
113 19:23 < white> but i am not sure
114 19:24 < finnarne> It's the quick fix for a quick release
115 19:24 < white> what can happen to the system if the user has access to /dev/dsp ?
116 19:24 < pere> someone _else_ can destroy the hearing of people with earphones plugged in, I guess.
117 19:25 < white> on the other hand normally the admin can add the pupils to the group but i think this is too much for our admins because it should happen automatically
118 19:25 < pere> so, anyone volunteering to look into this device access issue and come up with a fix?
119 19:25 < white> well i would add every user to the group audio by default or provide a small script so that the admin has to right the user names into a file and then they are added
120 19:26 < white> s/right/write/
121 19:26 < finnarne> white: what would that help over using mode 0666 ?
122 19:26 < pere> any ideas for solutions not mentioned so far?
123 19:26 < jemtland> If everyone in the system is added to the sound group, why cant we just leave the device open for everyone ?
124 19:27 < Werner_> no .. I say we go for 666.
125 19:27 < finnarne> I vote for extending cf/cf.dsp, to support udev as well.
126 19:27 < white> jemtland finnarne Werner_: yes i think you are right
127 19:27 -!- DbD
128 19:27 < pere> so, enough of udev/access problems. we need to move on. no-one took on the task, but we have some ideas for solutions.
129 19:27 < white> but then the admin has to change all if he doesn' want it
130 19:27 < pere> next on the agenda is 'ltsp'. what is wrong and how do we fix it?
131 19:27 < finnarne> ldm is taking to long to log in
132 19:28 < pere> finnarne: how long is too long?
133 19:28 < finnarne> #1010
134 19:29 < pere> any other problems with ltsp? finnarne you mentioned a broken script in svn. what is broken with it?
135 19:30 < finnarne> it's taking 60 seconds longer to log in using ldm than using X -query ltspserver
136 19:30 < pere> finnarne: so it is 1 seconds and 61 seconds, or 3 minutes and 4 minutes?
137 19:30 < finnarne> pere: jemtland checked in a version of debian-edu-ltsp which sets up diskless workstations.
138 19:30 < pere> finnarne: what kind of hardware have this problem?
139 19:31 < finnarne> the script are missing some additionla config files, and I think it will break (although I have not tested it)
140 19:31 < pere> finnarne: lets wait with that issue and focus on the slow login for a while.
141 19:31 < finnarne> pere: normal second hand workstations used as thin clients
142 19:32 < laprag> Have anyone spoken to ogra about this?
143 19:32 < pere> finnarne: 486, pentium, pentium II or what?
144 19:32 < finnarne> I think it's a PIII
145 19:32 < laprag> He is apparently working on it for the new Ubuntu version due in April
146 19:32 < finnarne> with enough memory
147 19:32 < pere> laprag: ogra=Oliver Grawert?
148 19:33 < laprag> Yes
149 19:33 < laprag> The problems are well known and acknowledged
150 19:33 -!- kaplan_israel
151 19:33 < pere> finnarne: right. ldm encrypts the connectoin, and that might be the problem.
152 19:33 < finnarne> the easy fix is to set up an lts.conf
153 19:33 < pere> but we do want encrypted connections to avoid sending passwords in clear text over the net.
154 19:34 < finnarne> pere: not on the cost of people chosing something else.
155 19:34 < pere> ok, anyone willing to look into the slow ldm issue, and make contact with ogra to look at solutions?
156 19:34 < white> but security comes first
157 19:35 * pere want to move on to the broken install script issue unless someone have new info on the slow ldm issue.
158 19:35 < laprag> I can speak to ogra, but do we want to make our own solution or wait for upstream?
159 19:35 < finnarne> quick fix for #1010 is on comment#3 on the bug I think
160 19:36 < pere> laprag: I do not know what we want, as I do not know the options. great if you can find out how long we have to wait for upstream.
161 19:36 < laprag> ok, I'll speak to him and find out
162 19:36 < finnarne> thx
163 19:36 < pere> ok, next issue on ltsp. finnarne claim a fix commited by jemtland will break the ltsp build. did anyone test this? jemtland?
164 19:37 < Werner_> I don't think that fix is on the CD yet.
165 19:37 < jemtland> I have not tested the new package. Have taken the file from a working installation on one of the shools here in Hamar.
166 19:37 < finnarne> no, it's not
167 19:37 < finnarne> (on the cd)
168 19:38 < laprag> which bug is this?
169 19:38 < pere> finnarne: you know this script a bit, right? how much work is it to get it working?
170 19:38 < jemtland> no bug-
171 19:38 < finnarne> I need ok from someone to work on it ...
172 19:39 < white> finnarne: i can give you every ok i have ;)
173 19:39 < pere> finnarne: do you estimate 30 minutes, a day, a week?
174 19:39 < finnarne> when that's ok - I guess I need 30 minutes - 1 hour
175 19:39 < laprag> What fix is it? Fix what?
176 19:39 < jemtland> laprag: commit r5359
177 19:40 < pere> anyone got time to test that the script is broken or not, and have a look at fixing it? finnarne is obviously tied down with this issue at the moment.
178 19:40 < jemtland> I have talked to Halvor today. Asked if Skolelinux Drift can give faj a couple of hours to get this on the cd
179 19:40 < jemtland> He is going to talk to faj about this tomorrow.
180 19:40 < pere> are there other fixes in svn being held back because of this commit?
181 19:41 < Werner_> finnarne: can you give a short explanation of what it does?
182 19:41 < jemtland> thick clients, with the / system from tjener.
183 19:41 < finnarne> installs a full workstation in the ltsp chroot
184 19:41 < jemtland> root system
185 19:42 < finnarne> should have working usb support etc.
186 19:42 < white> that is nice
187 19:42 < pere> so this is the diskless workstation solution, right?
188 19:42 < finnarne> yes
189 19:43 < finnarne> based on ltsp5 (or whatever it's called - muekow)
190 19:43 < pere> are we in a hurry to get the svn version fixed, or can we wait for a solution?
191 19:43 < pere> or to put it another way, are there other fixes in svn being held back because of this commit?
192 19:43 < pere> are there other issues with ltsp we need to be aware of now?
193 19:43 < finnarne> well - to get other fixes into debian-edu-config we either need to move the script aside, pull back an old one or fix it
194 19:44 < jemtland> Not that I know of. There has not been any commits against debian-edu-config after my commit.
195 19:44 < pere> finnarne: I know, but are there such fixes waiting in svn at the moment?
196 19:44 < jemtland> Ss far as I have been able to see.
197 19:44 < pere> ok.
198 19:44 < finnarne> ntp, udev, ?
199 19:45 < pere> jemtland, you triggered this. do you have time to look into the issue to either get a fixed version into svn or revert the changes until someone have time to fix the script?
200 19:45 < pere> I assume this means testing the current version and perhaps get finnarne hands untied.
201 19:46 < pere> or find out what is wrong and fix it yourself.
202 19:46 < jemtland> I'll look into getting finnarne's hands untied.
203 19:46 < finnarne> :)
204 19:47 < pere> jemtland: and please add a comment on top of sbin/ltsp-make-client about the commit if you end up reverting it for the time being.
205 19:47 < pere> ok we move on. kdepim. what is wrong and how do we fix it?
206 19:47 < white> kdepim needs to be on the cd
207 19:47 < finnarne> and get installed
208 19:47 < white> in sid there kmail has a dependency against it
209 19:47 < white> but not in sarge
210 19:47 < pere> white: why do we need it?
211 19:48 < finnarne> imap support for kmail
212 19:48 < white> bug 995
213 19:48 < Werner_> I've added it to the desktop-kde, but not built the debian-edu source package yet..
214 19:48 < pere> how big is it, what will fall out if it is added?
215 19:49 < finnarne> it's alreadyu added I think
216 19:49 < Werner_> it was too many packages missing when running 'rm debian/control; make debian/control' so I didn't commit
217 19:49 < Werner_> and build the package(s).
218 19:49 < Werner_> pere: if I can get 15-30 minutes from you tomorrow, I guess it is fixed?
219 19:49 < pere> I had planned to remove a few packages based on the counts from <URL:http://developer.skolelinux.no/popcon/>, but never gat that far.
220 19:50 < pere> celestia is rarely used, so removing it was high on my agenda.
221 19:50 < Werner_> pere: so do you have some time to look at it with me tomorrow?
222 19:50 < pere> sad, but as long as no-one is using it, it does not make sense to spend 15MiB of CD space on it.
223 19:50 < pere> Werner_: yes, we can have a look at it tomorrow. I have a concert to attend to, but we can do it earlier in the day.
224 19:51 < Werner_> sounds good .. I'm leaving at 1630 or so, so before that would be great.
225 19:51 < pere> any other problematic packages? is wlus in a good shape?
226 19:51 < finnarne> it's mostly working - no changes actually
227 19:51 < finnarne> I've seen some strange things with samba
228 19:52 < finnarne> and some strange things with group creation
229 19:52 < white> is the jradmin stuff working?
230 19:52 < finnarne> not within wlus
231 19:52 < white> :(
232 19:52 < finnarne> there are a couple of scripts in debian-edu-config/tools that might help
233 19:52 < white> that is an high requested feature
234 19:53 < white> to give others than root usercreation access
235 19:53 < pere> ok. we are running out of time. lets do a round around the table, please give two sentences explaining what you are currently working on related to debian-edu.
236 19:54 < finnarne> I've spent some time testing slbackup and rdiff-backup lately
237 19:54 < laprag> I'll talk to ogra about the login issue
238 19:54 < k4x> preparing Erkelenz
239 19:54 < white> still working on some other annoying bugs, i will leave most of them unspecified because they shouldn't blog the release
240 19:54 < pere> I've been working on the norwegian spell checking system lately, trying to get the volunteer project going to maintain it. I've also worked on the boot process, trying to find ways to speed up the boot and make it better for thin clients and diskless workstations (aka read-only root systems).
241 19:55 < jemtland> I'm mostly trying to follow up on the bugs into bugzilla. Mostly testing installations. Trying to locate bugs, against later builds.
242 19:55 < Werner_> I've been working with finnarne on rdiff-backup/slbackup (and hope we have a solution now), also trying to fix the kdepim package, and general bugs from bugzilla.
243 19:55 < white> i recommend all to create a status for releasing and not bringing more features things into the sarge release ...
244 19:55 < jemtland> Werner_: is that against #1025 ?
245 19:55 < finnarne> is all profiles tested in both norwegian and german after we switched to use cfengine2 ?
246 19:55 < white> let's do it after the release
247 19:56 < ThierryForb> working (with our team) on the french addon cd : we'll show you this work in Erkelenz :)
248 19:56 < jemtland> should we plan for a new meeting ?
249 19:56 < pere> I've spent some time sponsoring edu-packages from white into debian. ThierryForb, are the french team working on getting the special packages into debian?
250 19:57 < ThierryForb> yes
251 19:57 < white> i can make reviews if necessary
252 19:57 < ThierryForb> more or less 10
253 19:57 < pere> jemtland: yes, we should schedule a new meeting, and we should discuss what we need to focus on for the short term future.
254 19:57 -!- kaplan_israel
255 19:57 < Werner_> jemtland: #1025 yes..
256 19:57 < finnarne> should we plan the next meating after erkelenz ?
257 19:57 < pere> ThierryForb: please get in touch with white and me if you need sponsoring.
258 19:57 < ThierryForb> of course
259 19:58 < white> finnarne: i think after erkelenz
260 19:58 < finnarne> jemtland: and a lot of other rdiff/slbackup bugs
261 19:58 < pere> how often should we do IRC meetings? one per month, every 2 weeks, or ever 2 months?
262 19:58 < ThierryForb> we'll speak about that in Erkelenz
263 19:58 * Werner_ votes for every two weeks
264 19:58 * white agrees to Werner_
265 19:58 * finnarne to - until we have a Skolelinux 2.0
266 19:58 < Werner_> I have updated http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEduMeeting20060119 a bit during the meeting
267 19:58 < [-oskar-]> pere, We are working with Raphael and I'm working with sven so I think we will be able to do something ;)
268 19:58 * pere votes for once per month, and want us to coordinate the rest on irc and mail.
269 19:59 < Werner_> finnarne: whatever we call it :)
270 19:59 * jemtland also votes for every 2 weeks until release
271 19:59 < jemtland> But, could we doit one hour later ....
272 19:59 * white recommends to make a first release date at the meeting after erkelenz
273 19:59 < white> so that we have a goal now
274 19:59 < k4x> german team has irc meeting every week wednesday 22 o'clock CET
275 20:00 < pere> jemtland: 1900GMT, you mean?
276 20:00 < jemtland> pere: yes.
277 20:00 < finnarne> jemtland: not sure my wife agrees
278 20:00 < pere> ok, I am outvoted. every two weeks it is. I guess we should stay away from wednesdays. any prefered day?
279 20:00 < white> jemtland: otherwise you are unable to attend???
280 20:00 < finnarne> Thursday is fine by me
281 20:00 < white> no wednesday and no weekend
282 20:01 < white> i prefer
283 20:01 < finnarne> and no tuesday (unless after 2000GMT)
284 20:01 < k4x> Thursday is ok by me
285 20:01 < pere> thursday and tuesday are not too good for me. I would prefer monday.
286 20:01 < jemtland> I'm putting my son to bed after childrens tv. It ofthen takes more then 20 minutes...
287 20:01 < jemtland> But I'll manage. I'll just be 5-10 minutes late...
288 20:01 < white> monday also sounds good
289 20:01 < pere> any protests for monday?
290 20:01 < k4x> Monday is ok by me too
291 20:01 < white> finnarne?
292 20:02 < white> Werner?
293 20:02 < white> jemtland?
294 20:02 < jemtland> monday ok for me to
295 20:02 < finnarne> monday is fine I guess (except for the next meating - some may be on they way back from erkelenz?)
296 20:02 < k4x> ThierryForb: ?
297 20:02 < laprag> he wanted protests, not accepts
298 20:02 < ThierryForb> ok for me toot
299 20:02 < pere> next meeting monday 2006-01-30 or 2006-02-06?
300 20:02 < pere> -30 is a bit close to the german meeting.
301 20:02 < k4x> 2006-02-06
302 20:02 < Werner_> monday is fine
303 20:02 < laprag> 30 jan is too soon after next conf
304 20:03 < finnarne> lets have a slow start 2006.02.06
305 20:03 < ThierryForb> the 30 in france there is Solution linux
306 20:03 < pere> ok, -02-06 it is. thank you all for attending. white, when will you have the summary ready?
307 20:03 < ThierryForb> linux expo in Paris
308 20:03 < finnarne> ok - next meeting monday 2006.02.06 at 1900GMT
309 20:03 < white> finnarne: i need the logs and i will start the summary now
310 20:04 < white> pere: writing it now i hope in 1-2 hours
311 20:04 -!- k4x
312 20:04 < pere> I consider the meeting closed and step down from the moderator chair. :)