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## Auto-converted by kwiki2moinmoin v2005-10-07
DebianDesktopTenets - Now available.

DebianDesktopProjectGoals - Help flesh these out!

Some topics of interest:

UI Level Improvements Issues:
 * MenuStructure - Menu structure for desktop user
   * ["KDEMenuStructureVolunteers"]
 * ConfigurationHandling
 * MimeTypes auto-binding
 * DefaultPackages - Requirements for desktop-base


 * WoodyOrSid - debian-desktop-kde in Sid, apt-pinning in Woody.
 * UsabilityLinks - Some references on usability
 * DesktopResolutionDraft - Work on this folks

System Level Improvements Issues:
 * BootProcessSpeedup - Make the boot times shorter
 * supermount, automount or hotplugging ["FDs"] and ["CDs"] (making sure apps behave nice and close files and connections)
 * DevicePermissions - Default capabilities for users on the system.
 * NativeOrGeneric - A discussion regarding Native Apps vs. Generic Apps.
 * LinuxSpeedup - Specific tweaks to make the GUI crank!
 * automatic harware detection (i.e. kernel development)
 * Have an easy and automatic backup solution like http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots activated by default at least for /home an /etc. (skolelinux has a rdiff solution)

miniwoody 1.2a has been released. A few bug fixes has been made, f.e. a after installation of german-environment users was not able to change their desktop behavior. This has been fixed within ver1.2a.

As Altioth seems to allow only uploads up to 2 MB right now, miniwoody development sites are available at ["berliOS"].

Changelog:
http://gnulinux.de/downloads/miniwoody_changelog

Package List:
http://gnulinux.de/downloads/miniwoody_1_2a_selections

["berliOS"]:
http://developer.berlios.de/projects/miniwoody/

Download Mirror:
ftp://ftp.lazzurs.net/
----
yo pienso que es bueno que debian detecte hardaware y mejore su ionstalador para evitar tener que reiniciar durante esta, no es nesesario hacer un instalador grafico

Me llamo Nelson Javier Muñoz Benitez y soy un usuario activo de Debian GNU/Linux yo pienso que para que debian sea sin lugar a dudas la mejor eleccion deberia mejorar su instalador y cuando digo mejorar no me refiero a hacerlo grafico o con menos preguntas al contrario, que siga utilizando ncurses, que pregunte mas cosas acerca de la configuracion del sistema, pero que detecte el hardware de nuestra maquina, eso seri uno de los mayores avances en la historia de debian, gracias.

I think this translates to something like:

I think it's good to add hardware detection and better [improve, as below?] the installer to avoid having to reinitiate(?) [it's 'reboot'] during it, a GUI is not necessary.

My name is Nelson Javier Muñoz Benitez and I actively use Debian GNU/Linux. I think that without a doubt the best choice Debian can make is to improve their installer. When I say improve, I don't mean add a GUI or reduce questions, but rather that it continues using ncurses, that it asks more things having to do with configuring the system, but that it detects the hardware of our machines--that would be one of the greater advances in the history of Debian, thanks.
----
There was a little discussion here about the role of webmin, which is now snipped and can be pulled from the archives if anyone wants it. I have talked to a number of people and basically everyone concludes that webmin does not belong into debian because the role it plays should be handled by dconf's now unmaintained web frontend.
-rcaskey
#language en
||<tablestyle="width: 100%;" style="border: 0px hidden">~-Translation(s): English - [[es/DebianDesktop|Español]] - [[fr/DebianDesktop|Français]] - [[it/DebianDesktop|Italiano]] - [[sv/DebianDesktop|Svenska]] -~||<style="text-align: right;border: 0px hidden"> (!) [[DebianDesktop/Discussion|Discussion]]||
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remembr this is a DESKTOP not a workstation...we want people to use this. I tell you, I tried going back to Redhat...I felt like I had my arms choped off when installing a new kernel or installing software....getting more people to use Debian will help....and that is why I think the installer should have a default of grafical with an option for and expert text install. I also think that since this is a desktop distrobution, we can afford to be a little less picky and we should take packages right from sid, Debdesktop-ize them (make them integrate well) and throw them outthere....we can have our own testing and stable, but we can move faster than the main branch and we might end up speeding up the testing branch on the main tree. I say this becasue many people use Unstable as there desktop, and most others use testing, this says to me that we can afford to move much faster to get stuff into our tree from sid. {{{#!wiki debian
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop - Debian Desktop official page.
}}}
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----
Some of the above discussion could be refactored into WoodyOrSid or BestOfBreedApps.
The Debian Desktop subproject is a group of people who want to create the best possible Linux operating system for home and corporate workstation use, with the integration and common features of the various desktop-related packages in Debian (and their bug reports, questions and patches), based in freedesktop.org standards ([[Gnome]], [[KDE]], [[Xfce]]...). Our motto is "Software that Just Works". In short, our goal is to bring Debian, GNU, and Linux to the mainstream world.
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I think Debian desktop distribution shoud use a PGI installer (http://hackers.progeny.com/pgi/) for installation with automatic harware detection (PGI uses discover, mdetect and other debian tools for automatical hardware detection) and GNOME System Tools (http://www.gnome.org/projects/gst/) for configuration. In out country (Lithuania) we made beta version of user-friendly debian desktop, we are using PGI and Debian Configlets (http://hackers.progeny.com/configlets/), but Debian Configlets has many bugs and are integrated only with old gnome - 1.4. Gnome System Tools (old name - Ximian Setup Tools) are beeter and more user-friendly, they are already integrated with GNOME 2. Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo (jsogo@debian.org) produced debian packages - see http://people.debian.org/~jsogo/gst/ . I think Gnome System Tools shoud be standart debian user-friendly configuration tools, see DebianBug:161135 You don't need different ISO images to install or need to learn a new Linux distribution. Debian Desktop is Debian! We call Debian Desktop the subproject and the group of teams involved in delivering you the best desktop experience ever.
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Mantas Kriauciunas (monte@mail.lt) See the DebianDesktopHowTo for further installation info.
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I remembered one more problem in debian - there are no really working and user friendly package manager :(
The best is stormpkg, but with it is impossible to install packages from more, than one CD :( and nobody develops or maintains this apt frontend now: see DebianPackage:stormpkg - there are lot of old and unfixed bugs. Very user friendly package manager is Red-Carpet (on Debian Red-Carpet uses native Packages.gz files (from web or local sources), but I don't know how to make it work with CD), there are also problems with maintaining - see DebianBug:red-carpet and DebianBug:150546
== Releases ==
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synaptic works fine does it not?   * [[Etch| Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 - Etch]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Etch|Artwork]]
  * [[Lenny| Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 - Lenny]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Lenny|Artwork]]
  * [[Squeeze| Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 - Squeeze]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Squeeze|Artwork]]
  * [[Wheezy| Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 - Wheezy]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Wheezy|Artwork]]
  * [[DebianJessie| Debian GNU/Linux 8.0 - Jessie]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Jessie|Artwork]]
  * [[DebianStretch| Debian GNU/Linux 9 - Stretch]] - [[DebianDesktop/Artwork/Stretch|Artwork]]
  * [[DebianBuster| Debian GNU/Linux 10 - Buster]] (development release)
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Hola
Mi ingles es demasiado malo, así que espero que alguién traduzca esto O:-)
== Get Involved ==
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En Hispalinux (www.hispalinux.es)hay un proyecto llamado meta-distros en el que participan varios desarrolladores Debian, usuarios avanzados, medios y noveles, además de otros interesados en poder crear una distribución hecha "a medida", basdas en Debian The Debian Desktop initiative has the following resources for those who want to get involved:
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Se han analizado varios intentos como Linuxin y knoppix y actualmente se trabaja en cambiar, no el sistema de instalación , si no el "metodo de instalación...me explico:
Actualmente todas las distribuciones se instalan reconociendo hardware, seleccionando paquetes, instalando esos paquetes (con sus opciones de configuración) y ejecutando LILO o GRUB, lo que nosotros pensamos (al menos yo ) es que se podría hacer de otra forma: con Knoppix ya tienes una distribución funcionando (es un live CD) seleccionas el idioma (y pais opcionalmente) , particionas el HD (dando a elegir entre todo, automatico o a medida (linex.org es ideal)) y copias la parte del CD que corresponda al HD, arreglas los links pides los passwd y ejecutas LILO (o GRUB)
  * [[http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop|Mailing list]]
  * [[http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop|Development website]]
  * [[http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-desktop|Subversion repository]]
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Knoppix ya tiene hecho un script que hace esta ultima parte, woody tiene el selector de idioma y Linex hace muy bien lo de las particiones. '''Desktop Specs'''
  * You are free to write /DebianDesktop/YOURSPEC and link it here with your proposal. Please start the discussion about your idea using our mailing list (link above)
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sergio.gonzalez@hispalinux.es, luis.llorente@hispalinux.es, acs@barrapunto.com (Alvaro del castillo) y kiwnix@yahoo.es (Eduardo Garcia) han trabajdo sobre esto. [[DebianDesktop/FluxboxSpec|Fluxbox Spec]]
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'''Discussion'''
  * For those who don't want to discuss using email and prefer wiki we've also a [[DebianDesktop/Discussion| discussion page here]].
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Por otro lado Meta-distros es un proyecto aún más ambicioso puesto que pretende crear meta-paquetes de una distribución entera particularizada: === More Information ===
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ejemplo (distribución Debian Edu)   * [[DebianDesktop/Tasks| Understanding how Debian Desktop related packages are organized for installation]]
  * [[DebianDesktop/Artwork| Debian Desktop common Artwork release]]
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debian-edu.deb === See Also ===
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este paquete tiene solo dependencias, estas son a unos paquetes llamados app-conf-debian-edu.deb

los paquetes app-conf-debian-edu.deb contienen el pre o post configuración de ese programa en particular para que se comporte coherentemente en la distro y una dependencia a la app


de esta forma un rsantos@nomada#apt-get install debian-edu

me instalaría todas las app y bien configuradas para pder dar clases a mis alumnos.


mas info (en Español) [http://www.hispalinux.es/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpWiki&file=index&pagename=Meta-distros Mas info]

En el V Congreso de Hispalinux (http://congreso.hispalinux.es al que, por supuesto, estais invitados :) habrá un foro sobre este asunto...así que ya contaremos por aqui

contacto amaya@debian.org hector@debian.org o yo mismo (en Español) roberto.santos@hispalinux.es

----
For the configuration I think the config4gnu project is going to be '''the''' thing. The guys that started the project have really thought it through and have considered the existing (sub-optimal) solutions. http://config4gnu.sourceforge.net And hey, debconf and the debian-installer should make good use of it! Check it out.

-----
Here's how it could be done. Choose a simple, lightweight and easy-to-use window manager (I'll leave the holy wars to someone else, but: pwm, wmaker, fluxbox, sawfish, metacity, oroborus.. take your pick), and a nice panel-program, and a nice file-manager, and some other nice apps from any desktop environment, configured to look alike and look good.

'apt-get install kde' should get kde, 'apt-get install gnome' should get gnome, but the "default" could be a debian custom made, simple GUI with the best apps and a clear and good menu structure. Also perhaps look into ROX or Xfce?



One of the biggest problems with a desktop version is that the packages need to be up2date as possible as with a desktop people want the newest feature. yet at the same time it can't break when I do a apt-get upgrade. This is the current reason that I don't use debian as my desktop, and one of most often heard complaint of debian. Somehow for this project to be successful this has to be overcome.

I was actually considering doing something similar to debian desktop myself and then I saw your announcement :-) Some of the ideas I had for "my distro" (a debian meta-distro really) were as follows:

1. Create a super cut down debian installer. Something like Corel's where you just partition (with auto partitioning options like free space and whole disk), set a root password, set a username and password and that's it! I'd actually add in a "what country are you in" question which generates the locales, desktop, keyboard mappings (and maybe even isp settings).

2. Make the debian installer install a basic set of configured packages which provides one tool per job! While I realise that many people will prefer other options for a task (xine V mplayer, vi V emacs) you can't cater for everyone (in the short term) in this way very easily! Provide a single comprehensive system that can be easily supported.

3. Document, document, document! The biggest factor for the adoption of a debian desktop system would be the availability of good HOWTO documents such as, how do I burn a CD (and ensure that ide cdr drives automatically use the ide-scsi system), how do I listen to music/play a video. How do I open a word document? How do I perform security updates? How do I setup one machine to act as a debian proxy for my network of Debian Desktops? How do I install software! How do I capture and edit videos!

All of this documentation should be targetted to deliver the knowledge you need in one screen for 95% of people!

If we can do that (and ensure newbies don't have to take on the cd-writing howto and other such similar documents) then we will jump past most/all of the current distros.

4. Auto-detect hardware and fall back to the regular debian tools only if this fails! Video (2d, 3d, video), audio, network, usb, printer, scanner, monitor? Create more documentation to let people know what hardware is supported, and how to setup hardware if autodetection fails.

5. Security! Aim to include as standard tools such as the international kernel patch (as was) for using encrypted filesystems, gpg for encrypting email, iptables based firewalling, snort intrusion logging, ip-tunnels (for vpn connections) and anything else possible to provide the users with a tougher system without getting in the users way. MS tend to ignore these issues until they are forced upon them, and other Linux distros seem to do the same, they certainly aren't standard proceedures on any OS I know (I gather ["WinXP"] now has reasonable encrypted filesystem support).

Imagine being able to tell people that without their password, no-one, not us, not their government and not their kids/parents/housemates will be able to read their home directory without spending years and serious cash cracking their system.

Truly I think the way forward is to first create a document which describes what roles the system is designed to take on, then to determine the software required to fulfil these roles, then to simultaneously (re)package the software and write the HOWTO documents for each of the roles of the system.

Finally (and this would fit in best with the current state of play of debian-installer I think) create a new installer which provides the system with the absolute miminum user input.

Unfortunately other work has come my way and I won't have anything like the time I'd hoped to work on this but I'll be keeping an eye on things and doing what I can. Good Luck all.


== JUST A FEW THOUGHTS ==
=== open ports ===
What about open ports? I think it is really anoying that most Linux distributions start a lot of both unnecessary and potentially
dangerous services, e.g. identd, portmap, nfs, inetd-based things like echo, chargen, daytime ... usually nobody needs on a
desktop system. A desktop box should have no open ports box by default.

One of the first (anoying) things I do when installing a new debian box is killing inetd, portmap, identd, lpr. I think this should really be the default, particulary on a desktop box.

=== exim ===
When configuring exim, I tell it that I'm not on a network, and that i don't want to receive any mail. Exim say OK and starts
listening on 0.0.0.0/25. Why? There is even an option in the exim.conf file to restrict it to 127.0.0.1/25, but it's commented out by default. A desktop box doesn't receive email directly anyway, why not adopt an "secure by default" approach, particular when
talking about desktop boxes supposed to be used by inexpirienced users who don't know netstat et al.

=== lpr ===
Lpr has always been a pain in my neck. I think it __really__ wasn't designed for desktop use. I like using pdq + xpdq. It is easy to
set up and configure, and doesn't even __have__ a spooler, which could cause trouble. Pdq needs really little attention, once set up.

=== anacron ===
A desktop system should IMO install anacron by default. It is really useful to make sure cron jobs are beeing run on a system
without predictable uptimes, which I think is typical for a desktop box.

=== store configuration on a floppy disk ===
It would be nice to store the configuration setting on a floppy disk once the installation is finished. I think most desktop user
make no regular backup using tar/cpio/amanda/adsm like somebody running a server. Most desktop users only make backups of their
home directory, and use the cdrom to reinstall the software. In this case, it would be nice to have an option of installing using
the configuration and the package selection stored on the floppy disk, including recreating user accounts.

Such a floppy disk would also turn out handy when setting up a lot of similar desktop boxes.

=== ldap ===
Often, it is useful to manage system configuration and user accounts using a central LDAP directory. It would be nice to make doing so as easy as posible.

=== sitar ===
On a Suse box I once saw a tool called sitar, which would gather a lot of setup information from all over the system, including hardware information, loaded modules, installed software etc. and created a single html file from this information, which could be used to provide all relevant details when asking for help/support. Maybe a similar tool exists for debian, or could be written.

=== installation / configuration log file ===
It would be nice if both the installer and the configuration wizard would write a detailed log file of what they were doing.

Also it would be nice to make it easy to choose between different system configuration profiles, and to have configuration
checkpoints both in periodical time intervalls and on demand, to which a broken system could be reverted.

All the best wishes, stefan at tietke dot net

=== using KNOPPIX as an Ad Hoc installer ===
It might be worth considering using KNOPPIX as an Ad Hoc installer by removing any KDE/Openoffice/... package until there
are only those parts left which do the autoconfiguration and start into X. Such an image should not be much bigger than
about 50-70 megs. the remaining space on the cdrom could be used to hold the installer program and the deb-packages.

Doing so would have the advantage of being an pretty easy and quick way to bootstrap the entire project. At the point were the installer program starts we would have all the hardware detected and listed in /etc/sysconfig,
would have X running, and would have all necessary tools available including higher level languages such as perl
or python, which make developing and debugging an installer application easier and faster.

Look and feel-

In light of some recent developments in look and feel, here are some things I'd like to see as an end-user:

Consistent look: Not so much "Bluecurve" (i.e. an icon on both desktops labeled "Internet") but rather sharing certain resources between KDE/GNOME (e.g. Keramik/Geramik and other matching themes, common icon sets, etc...)
Configuration: With this in mind, might not MagiConf be the best choice for configuration? One thing that I get with GNOME Control Center/Setup Tools is the configuration of some small part of a GNOME app under KDE leaves gconfd, oafd, and a lot of other processes running that won't be used again. . .

Otherwise, I really look forward to seeing what this project can do for Debian.

AGNULA (DEMUDI) http://www.agnula.org

I'd suggest people check out AGNULA sub project. Especially on the Debian specification.

For those of you who don't know AGNULA is putting out two multimedia GNU/Linux distributions for sound professionals. One based on Debian (DEMUDI) and one based on RedHat (REHMUDI). The one based on Debian will eventually be merged with Debian.

Some of their goals/specification

Currently they will be using pgi for their installer (easy installer)
Autodetection
Configuration using web-based tools (webmin or webmin like tool)
Specialized kernel with low-latency/ACPI/premptible kernel all included (for better realtime response for sound applications)
They'll be getting Audio to work very well (OSS/ALSA) with focus on ALSA.
Desktops include KDE/GNOME and some others .

Some of their goals if not all are quite compatible with getting a good desktop system up and running and on top of that it would have great hardware detection and sound applications working very well. The debian desktop project would have some additional requirements but I think it would be good to get in contact with them.

DebianDesktop: Look & feel vs. function

It was yesterday that I read about Xandros for the first time
and was very excited to see that it is based on Debian, as I
am tinkering with Woody since it´s official release.
That also was the first time that I heard about DebianDesktop.

So far I tried a few distrubutions, including ["SuSE"], Redhat and EasyLinux
(they actually were in my neighbourhood, sadly enough they went bancrupt),
just for fun (sorry, no pun intended...).

What puzzles me is that so many people keep being focused on look and feel.
Sure, many programs are really ugly, concerning their user interface, no
matter if it´s CLI or GUI. And many times it can even slow down your workflow
because you always have to recall which buttons/commands to use/where to find.

But all that eye-candy ("KDE and Gnome now look all the same") can´t help you
if clipboard applications don´t work cross-GUI or if I can´t switch from,
let´s say, Evolution to K-Mail because one can´t read the others file format.
Or even worse: You can´t log on to the internet and aks questions about
non-working programs/hardware/whatnot because you can´t figure out how to
get your modem up and running.

OK. In the MS Windows-world it many times is all the same. I agree.
My hope is upon this project (DebianDesktop), because I believe if someone
can get it done right, then it´s you people developing Debian.
I hope you won´t lose sight of the many important things (e.g. hardware
autodetection, which would REALLY ease installation, even for experts)
that need to be done for a Debian based desktop system over all that
"text- vs. GUI-installer" and "should Gnome and KDE look the same" discussion.
Some of the suggestions above seem very promising.

I am still searching for a (non-programming) opportunity to contribute to Debian,
but have not yet found where to lend a hand.

Keep up the good work.

Ingo.
iklettiweb.de

Sorry, something´s gone wrong with the editor.

You can e-mail me: ikletti at web.de Ingo.

hi, I've found a very interesting document that may be useful from a conceptual point of view. The author uses gnome2, but the ideas
are independent.

http://evolvedoo.sourceforge.net/abstract/index.html

Here is an interesting article on interfaces in general. Its a little broad for the Debian Desktop (talks about all sorts of software), but an interesting read, none the less.

DebianDesktop

Exim, we don't need a full mail server, most people will want evolution and just to have mail forwarded to a smtp / downloaded from pop. If we must have a "echo hi || mail user@domain" solution then we should install nullmailer or something like that.

Here is an interesting article from Ximian on how to integrate OpenOffice.org in their new desktop http://www.gnome.org/~michael/["XimianOOo"]/img1.html

Bye Philipp Strack

Maybe it would be nice to also integrate [["XPde"] http://www.xpde.com/] to make it as easy as possible for windos yousers to switch to linux
 * http://www.xpde.com/shots.php
 * http://www.xpde.com/
--PhilippStrack

I think most of the desktop users will be confused by the bootup messages so there schould be an alternativ precompiled kernel with the [http://packages.debian.org/kernel-patch-lpp linux progress patch] patch in it philipp strack

dup dupa dupa :-)

But if you really want to use the progress patch, please don't do the failure ["SuSE"] did: putting text into the startup screen without internationalizing it.


----

Why do people want so much a consistent look between Gnome and KDE? I actually hated RedHat's BlueCurve. I mean, Gnome and KDE exist so we can have choices - some enjoy Gnome more, some enjoy KDE. If you like Gnome, then '''don't use''' KDE's applications; and if you like KDE, '''don't use''' Gnome's applications. It's so simple. Stick with the one you like more.

--JoaoVictor

In my mind, the fact that KDE users can run GTK/Gnome
apps and Gnome users can run QT/KDE apps (with a sane default install that includes the relevant libraries), is one of the few saving graces of our fractured desktop. Users shouldn't have to worry about toolkits. Whatever desktop they choose (or is chosen for them, as is likely to be the case 99.9% of the time) shouldn't limit their selection of apps. They shouldn't have to even know what a toolkit is.

The world is going that multi-toolkit route for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that a really robust solution requires it given today's selection of apps (OpenOffice/VCL, Mozilla/XUL, GTK/Gnome, and QT/KDE apps). See any recent version of just about any Linux distro...

--MJ

----

pienso que la eleccion de idioma en el instalador deberia ser no solo para el instalador sino tambien para la instalacion,con esto quiero decir que el instalador dejara instaladas y configuradas las localidades, esto es muy importante para el usuario novell que sabe poco o nada de ingles.

tambien me parece importante dar importancia al sistema de ayuda (dhelp)
buscar la forma de que se instale de tal forma que todas sus opciones funcionen
instalacion de la documentacion base en ingles y opcion para otros idiomas


por ultimo tener en cuenta herramientas de manejo de paquetes para las x como synapic - gnome-apt y la configuracion del debcof para usarlo en las x

-- digitalfredy
  * [[Utnubu]]
 

Translation(s): English - Español - Français - Italiano - Svenska

(!) Discussion


http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop - Debian Desktop official page.

The Debian Desktop subproject is a group of people who want to create the best possible Linux operating system for home and corporate workstation use, with the integration and common features of the various desktop-related packages in Debian (and their bug reports, questions and patches), based in freedesktop.org standards (Gnome, KDE, Xfce...). Our motto is "Software that Just Works". In short, our goal is to bring Debian, GNU, and Linux to the mainstream world.

You don't need different ISO images to install or need to learn a new Linux distribution. Debian Desktop is Debian! We call Debian Desktop the subproject and the group of teams involved in delivering you the best desktop experience ever.

See the DebianDesktopHowTo for further installation info.

Releases

Get Involved

The Debian Desktop initiative has the following resources for those who want to get involved:

Desktop Specs

  • You are free to write /DebianDesktop/YOURSPEC and link it here with your proposal. Please start the discussion about your idea using our mailing list (link above)

Fluxbox Spec

Discussion

More Information

See Also